Topic: What's wrong with my current cold storage? - Weaknesses in cold storage methods - page 2. (Read 4075 times)

Thanks, I changed it to this

'A pre-funded physical bitcoin coin (where the manufacturer generates and installs the secret key)'

to reflect the proper terminology.

We usually use the terminology funded (or pre-funded) vs. DIY coins (or buyer funded) in the collectibles section. That may help with clearing things up. This is a nice summary but should probably be differently formatted to make it look nicer!

A good point, I have updated the section to be more accurate in that point

'A physical bitcoin coin where the manufacturer generates and installs the secret ke

 * The medium that the key is on is often paper/plastic which can burn or be smoke damaged'

This is only true for pre-funded coins, otherwise it is false. I'd say it is a bad generalization to say that all physical Bitcoin share these weaknesses, because they don't. There are several DIY coins, where you assemble and fund it with whatever address that you want. The only obvious weakness in DIY coins is theft (none of these listed above apply to these) and potentially your own generation scheme (if weak, vulnerable, etc.).

Hmm, I didn't include it at all because I figured anyone that gets any insight from this post would know well enough to not store their btc in an online service unless they were prepared to lose it.

I wanted to talk about cold storage methods that are secure, online storage is so far from secure I didn't even bother with it, should I add something to that effect?

it is always good to have security in mind when it comes to bitcoin or money in general and although i agree with most of what OP says but i have my own way of doing things.

i have made my cold storage in USB disk and i keep it encrypted and in my desk drawer. there is one paper backup of my seed and also a digital backup on the cloud (obviously encrypted) and i feel safe enough.

because even if i lose access to one of these like my house burning to the ground, i still have another back up accessible.

I keep about 20% of my coins in hardware wallets or online services to be able to trade quickly, or if I see something I want to buy. The

other 80% are in cold storage, securely stored. I will also not trust anyone with the storing of my private keys, no matter how reputable

they are. The 2FA authentication is a temporary hurdle for hackers, who mostly use social engineered methods to get hold of that. The

MitM attacks will also void some of these securing methods.

I personally don't feel safe with that even with 2FA after all the bitcoins are on the server some server that you dont know, even if the provider is very trusted you never know if the servers are hacked or something. In my opinion you should keep majority of bitcoin in cold storage, if you are going to use them in near future and keep some change online or anywhere you please for everyday use.

Again, I am trying to spell out the potential problems, if people are uninformed they would all just do silly things.


In fact you very greatly misunderstand everything about the motive for my post and creation. The post outlines why current methods were not good enough for me, because of their failure in edge cases.
The 'product' is a personal art project, I made this for me so that I could have something better than what was out there, for the reasons outlined above. It is expensive to make but way more expensive to design and make just one, so I made a few; perhaps others see the problems that I have outlined and want something better



that is the exact point of the post. was that not clear? I thought I was very clear in spelling out the weaknesses with methods and suggesting people stamp their own metal as the easiest option. Also, this post is more for people who don't have access to more than one location, so if their house burns down and all their paper wallets are in that house they are all gone. There is a link to a situation where this pretty much happened. That is why I made this post, to point out weaknesses (and show why I wanted something better)



I very much disagree, for one not everyone monitors their btc so if the thief replaces it you might never know until you need to spend it



I think I also suggested something along these lines for the better stamped metal plates

From previous discussions on this topic, I suggest the following  strategy: An M-of-N multisig wallet with multiple copies of each key distributed in different locations. Whether in digital or hardcopy format I simply don't have the expertise/data to judge which is best. But by using multisig you don't worry about a single copy of the key falling into wrong hands, and by using duplicate copies you protect against accidental loss. (This would only be for rarely touched significant investments, it's just too much of a hassle for everyday spending accounts.)

And while I appreciate the efforts of folks like in the OP, I still tend to think that zipping your wallet.dat file with a password, renaming it BirthdayPics2006 and throwing it on any decently operated cloud storage account is likely to be safer than most overthought methods, so long as you didn't have malicious code on your computer when you first generated it.

Cold storage is an ongoing process where you periodically check if all your multiple backups on multiple different mediums still work. If one breaks you replace it with a copy from one of your other backups. You can't rely on anything forever because of the human factor, so the belt and braces approach is best if you expect your belt or braces to eventually break and need replacing. Keep monitoring and repairing multiple backups.

your solution is over the top and also not perfect.
i don't think you can be 100% safe, but you also don't need to.
there are fine solutions at a cheap price that are sufficient.
the biggest factor is and always will be is the human part.

Nothing is wrong. I wish you good luck with your product, but to me it seems to be a bit of an overkill with no real benefit in terms of security. Especially I don't understand, why your product is limited edition (just 50 pieces). A suitable solution for cold storage should ideally be mass-produced and provided at low costs. To me it seems that you just want to create a collectible item that is never put to real use but instead just kept in a collection to be sold some day for higher prices.

I fail to see a real advantage of using your capsules over just printing out an (encrypted) paper wallet or engraving my (encrypted) key into a piece of metal of my choice. Doing it myself is a lot cheaper and I can print out thousands of paper wallets to store them at different places, thereby significantly reducing the risk of theft. A small sheet of paper is also much easier to hide than one of your capsules.

Physical tamper evidence is not a really important feature if the item you use for cold storage is itself worthless: If a potential thief will get his/her hands on your cold storage item he/she will either directly spend your BTC or transfer them to a new address. If you have any suspicion that someone might have discovered your cold storage you can quickly transfer your funds to a new address as well and create a new paper wallet. In addition you can easily provide some kind of tamper evidence for paper wallets as well: Put your paper wallet in tinfoil / a dark envelope and seal it with glitter nail polish.

ya.ya.yo!

If your marketing is good? Mmm... I don't think so, maybe you can do something more directly. You don't need to roast the others methods to promote your.

Change the world key for notes of dollar for example...
Anyone can steal it, it can burn. Same with any currency, like gold too, anyone can steal or whatever.

i agree about the edge cases but lets review your edge cases that you have been focusing on in your first post (corrosion, melting point, and you mentioned hard to machine which relates to hardness if we want to engrave physically and doesn't matter much if we want to laser-engrave)

keep in mind corrosion is a process, not a property.
Corrosion:
when we talk about corrosion it is all about the environment, put simply there are two categories to watch: corrosion that is not influenced by any other process and corrosion that is influenced by another process, such as the presence of stresses or erosion (Erosion being a wear process, in which surface damage is caused by the repeated application of high localised stresses)
since the wallet is going to be kept at home environment, lots of conditions like stress induced corrosion cracking are not relevant.
the only things that we have to think about are "Aqueous" and "atmospheric" Corrosion. so strictly speaking a carbon steel with a simple coating is going to do the trick.

melting point
again room temperature and a case of possible fire to reach a temperature of as high as 1100°C which is still inside working temperature of steels.


you misunderstood the meaning of "brittle". a brittle metal is a metal that breaks catastrophically when it reaches the UTS point.
we are talking about a metal, so tungsten with a Yield strength ~ 1000 MPa (it is 500 ish for SS) needs a tremendous amount of power to be broken.
i am not saying use tungsten , just pointing out what brittle means


you didn't say which alloy though.
you are intriguing me to buy one and do a quick XRD to find out

Bitcoin is all about the edge cases and being fully informed, I don't think there is any overkill in the comment but perhaps you can tell me what you think is overkill?

What does erosion have to do with this that corrosion does not cover?

> the hardness of these materials is what you should look for

hardness is good but as we see with tungsten being so brittle it isn't a end all be all. I agree that stamping on steel is the best for the common man, I update the Al part to reflect the potential melting point


The titanium is actually only about 10% more expensive than the 316SS and it has benefits for me, notably more lightweight, more corrosion resistance, and not paramagnetic 



This was all made because I want others to be aware of potential problems in their cold storage methods (to see why I wanted to make something better)

Thanks for you comments!

there are a lot of overkill in your comment and since my expertise lies in the following part i try to explain my thought:


lots of the links about corrosion, erosion (that you missed the link to), melting point, maintainability, etc are used for harsh/corrosive environment which contains acids like in the food industry, and as for machining, forming,... the hardness of these materials is what you should look for and a simple Austenite Stainless Steel has enough properties to be able to cut the big plate in the form of a paper wallet and then engrave on it using a simple chisel.


is your research a self google search or is is a consult with a material science expert?
if you ask me i say you have increased the cost at least 20 times by choosing Titanium and gaining not much properties over the stainless steel.


Aluminium properties can range from a melting point of 460 °C (865 °F) to 1500 °C (2800 °F) but the price is also going to go up!


i am curious to know which Titanium alloy it is used in this product.

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Austenite Stainless Steel is most probably more than enough for this particular usage, and if you are worried about some properties like the strength, more corrosion resistance, a better surface, a better resistance to Pitting there are some alloys that have structures made out of a mixture of Austenite, Martensite, Ferrite which are so much cheaper than Titanium with enough properties to satisfy any possible threat.

i will post more information with my CES if i had time!

Every method having their own risk but it is good to know the risk so we can make things to secure our bitcoins, I have not try cold storage because I believe online is safer when you put 2FA on your accounts.

Almost every cold storage method is vulnerable to hack /theft /natural calamities. We can protect our laptop with a password from a colleague not from a fire accident.
Having multiple copies in different format and keeping them in different location must be a 'practical' solution still not a complete solution imo.

Most of your storage methods, do not include a backup plan. You never store only 1 copy of your paper wallet. You never store all paper wallets in 1 location. I have 3 locations with 3 copies of each paper wallet. For example : 1 copy in a safe deposit box / 1 copy in safe place at home / 1 copy buried in a time capsule.

I know the reason for this post, is to promote your device, but your storage methods needs redundancy to allow for disasters happening in your area. ^smile^