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Topic: What's wrong with XT? (Read 2266 times)

donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
October 17, 2015, 02:12:02 PM
#43
Quote from: Mike Hearn
Gavin and I can’t be ‘dictators’ because all we do is write software: if we go crazy, or do other things you disagree with, XT can be forked in exactly the same way as we did.

That argument makes makes it absolutely pointless to advocate XT because Core's governance is too intransigent. XT is even more intransigent. In Core they will usually admit code with a simple majority and despite Blockstream having majority, they don't typically agree any more than other contributors do among themselves.

See https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_unlimited/comments/3jly8t/introducing_bitcoin_unlimited/
sr. member
Activity: 251
Merit: 253
October 16, 2015, 10:02:48 PM
#42
My biggest problem with XT, and why I would never support it, is it gives all of the decision making powers to two people and two people only, and one of those two can override the other in extreme cases.  There is nothing more centralized than a system where 1 single person controls all aspects of said system.

Source: https://bitcoinxt.software/faq.html#who-is-involved
Quote
Decisions are made through agreement between Mike and Gavin, with Mike making the final call if a serious dispute were to arise.

But Core's the same way...

https://bitcoin.org/en/development#bitcoin-core-contributors

Quote from: Mike Hearn
Gavin and I can’t be ‘dictators’ because all we do is write software: if we go crazy, or do other things you disagree with, XT can be forked in exactly the same way as we did.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
October 15, 2015, 08:02:29 PM
#41
I was hoping to get a discussion going on what are the disadvantages of XT, but no one has brought anything in specific up.

Please! Someone attempt to persuade me Wink

My biggest problem with XT, and why I would never support it, is it gives all of the decision making powers to two people and two people only, and one of those two can override the other in extreme cases.  There is nothing more centralized than a system where 1 single person controls all aspects of said system.

Source: https://bitcoinxt.software/faq.html#who-is-involved
Quote
Decisions are made through agreement between Mike and Gavin, with Mike making the final call if a serious dispute were to arise.

actually users still have the final say, if you dont like what Mike of Gavin are deciding, you can always switch to Core of btcd or some other implementation I hope there will be many. The more choice the better. The first step is wrestling the control away from the one centrally controlled repository, so far 2 out of 5 with commit access would like to do that starting with XT.   
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000
October 15, 2015, 12:53:20 PM
#40
I was hoping to get a discussion going on what are the disadvantages of XT, but no one has brought anything in specific up.

Please! Someone attempt to persuade me Wink

My biggest problem with XT, and why I would never support it, is it gives all of the decision making powers to two people and two people only, and one of those two can override the other in extreme cases.  There is nothing more centralized than a system where 1 single person controls all aspects of said system.

Source: https://bitcoinxt.software/faq.html#who-is-involved
Quote
Decisions are made through agreement between Mike and Gavin, with Mike making the final call if a serious dispute were to arise.
legendary
Activity: 3976
Merit: 1421
Life, Love and Laughter...
October 15, 2015, 08:14:15 AM
#39
I was hoping to get a discussion going on what are the disadvantages of XT, but no one has brought anything in specific up.

Please! Someone attempt to persuade me Wink

Just be a Gavinista.  No one cares.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
October 15, 2015, 05:52:50 AM
#38
It has probably been moved by the censoring mods. Don't delude yourself.

I posted it here, it wasn't moved. This is theymos' forum, if he wants XT topics posted in the altcoin section I can respect that.

You see "knight"22? Don't go around assuming have as little decency as you.
sr. member
Activity: 251
Merit: 253
October 14, 2015, 10:36:54 PM
#37
I was hoping to get a discussion going on what are the disadvantages of XT, but no one has brought anything in specific up.

Please! Someone attempt to persuade me Wink
sr. member
Activity: 251
Merit: 253
October 14, 2015, 10:33:21 PM
#36
It has probably been moved by the censoring mods. Don't delude yourself.

I posted it here, it wasn't moved. This is theymos' forum, if he wants XT topics posted in the altcoin section I can respect that.
legendary
Activity: 3976
Merit: 1421
Life, Love and Laughter...
October 14, 2015, 06:42:56 PM
#35
I learned a new term today.  "Gavinistas".  Good one, I shall use it one day.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
October 14, 2015, 02:21:10 PM
#34
My bad, we're in the alt coin section. Bitcoin Nodes are Alt's???, and Sidechains are bitcoin!

Oh! wait, All bitcoin nodes that support the protocol are Bitcoin it's you who is towing the party line calling 10% of bitcoin an alt. Which 10% is that?

Bitcoin adoption is needed to grow! turning away users is not in our best interests. I think you need to go back to attacking alts.  

"Bitcoin-the-coin-that-costs-$250-each is radically exclusive" what a joke!  
FYI: my $100 in Bitcoin is equal to 40% of your "radically exclusive" Bitcoin worth only $250.

Where do you think the value comes from? (hint it's not circle jerking) it's new users.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
October 14, 2015, 02:09:07 PM
#33

"Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"  "North Korean?"

/r/bitcoin is not North Korean dictatorship, ^that^ is North Korean dictatorship.

I see what you did, you put the focus on "North Korean?" avoiding the obvious "Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"

Bitcoin is inclusive, we can all use it it's public and open, your central control buddies or circle jerking is not going to make it an exclusive members only reserve chain for bankers or the new elites.  

even petty bitcoin trolls  will be aloud to use it.

You guys are doing a great job pushing away bitcoin newbies keeping your castle safe.

keep it up.


North Korea sets the standard for (and is certainly not "avoiding") dictatorship and authoritarianism.

Your rationalization of the Gavinistas' offensive exaggerations and hideously loaded terms is noted.

You are confused, and resorting to using fear of social isolation ("members only; pushing away bitcoin newbies") to sell your XT altcoin.

Bitcoin-the-coin-that-costs-$250-each is radically exclusive in that it is (as a design requirement) above the law.

Bitcoin-the-blockchain-based-technology-that-is-FOSS is radically inclusive in that anyone can fork it and/or join a fork if they like.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
October 14, 2015, 01:26:08 PM
#32

"Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"  "North Korean?"

/r/bitcoin is not North Korean dictatorship, ^that^ is North Korean dictatorship.

I see what you did, you put the focus on "North Korean?" avoiding the obvious "Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"

Bitcoin is inclusive, we can all use it it's public and open, your central control buddies or circle jerking is not going to make it an exclusive members only reserve chain for bankers or the new elites.  

even petty bitcoin trolls  will be aloud to use it.

You guys are doing a great job pushing away bitcoin newbies keeping your castle safe.

keep it up.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
October 14, 2015, 12:33:33 PM
#31
Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.

The only people "leading a war" are you Gavinista insurgents.

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Quote
Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Team Gavincoin defected from the consensus of Bitcoin's socioeconomic majority by openly declaring their hostile technical and political intentions.

The last things we want are "reconciliation and concensus" with such sworn enemies.

They will come crawling back, having surrendered unconditionally, or Team Core will continue to exist without them and be better for their absence.

Enjoy your shadowban.   Wink

Then enjoy your war and  your full time hyperventilation  Cheesy

The quote from Meni makes it perfectly clear the failed XT putsch was your war.  La Serenissima gave zero fucks about XTurds hilariously, ineffectually headbutting Her outer walls.

1 of the last 1000 blocks are (claimed to be) XT/101.  It's dead, Jim!  Please move on from the initial 'denial' stage of your grieving process.

As for "full time hyperventilation," have you seen the off-the-chart buttrage at /r/bitcoinxt lately?

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3omnaq/trolls_are_on_notice_courtesy_xpost_from_rbitcoin/

Quote
Theymos has been VERY CLEAR that is EXACTLY what he's doing for the purposes of destroying discussion. If you back his dictatorship you are not a 'friend', you are PART OF THE PROBLEM!

The dictatorship and attempts to subvert/destroy bitcoin will be remembered.

And trolls have been given a FREE REIGN in r/bitcoin for fuckin AGES, while legitimate discussion is censored and people are banned! Wtf do you think you are representing?? Take a good hard look in a mirror.

Quote
Such an authoritarian solution. All the censorship and banning and resulting streisanding has made your forum what it is. Clampdowns all day everyday, 'free speech zones', etc, you will never get the /r/bitcoin you want. Discussion will blossom in healthy environments free of such rigid conservative hardline ideological censorship and chilling effects.

Quote
You are liars. You are hypocrites. You give me a two week ban and yet don't lift it after two weeks. You manipulate the discusion. You crush any post that doesn't fit your agenda. You are hypocrates who ban me for criticizing a core dev in a thread where half the posts are criticizing mike and gavan and are allowed. How dare you come here and lie to our faces? Who would participate in the farce over there?? Who can believe anything you say??

The bitcoin community has been divided, not by trolls but by thermos and his bullshit agenda and north korean tactics and policies!

"Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"  "North Korean?"









/r/bitcoin is not North Korean dictatorship, ^that^ is North Korean dictatorship.
legendary
Activity: 3136
Merit: 1116
October 14, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
#30

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Quote
Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

...

You're really cherry picking from that post by Rosenfeld. Here is a more complete quote of his post (with portions that you probably don't agree with bolded):

Quote
Given that compromise failed, Gavin and Mike went ahead to push Bitcoin-XT, and now the real issue isn't about technology, it's about the philosophy of Bitcoin evolution. To me, Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos. Whereas Bitcoin Core represents a frigid approach, where no technology improvement will ever be made because consensus can't be reached, and where we can't do anything about the fact that we can't do anything, because of the delegitimization of attempts to change the status quo by forking and letting the best currency win (and make no mistakes, there will be many necessary technology improvements down the road; the block size limit pales in comparison).
Both choices are bad.

I had plans once to write a paper about the game-theoretic aspects of changing the Bitcoin protocol, the contingencies in case of a fork, and how the mere threat of a fork can create a Schelling point which would prevent it from happening. I regret never getting around to it, because it might have been illuminating in the current debate. (For that matter, the other paper I had plans for writing was about transaction fees and how they relate to things like a block size limit; I regret that too, but again the block size is no longer the real issue).
But anyway, I do strongly believe that the possibility of forking Bitcoin - even if at first it has no consensus - is vital to Bitcoin's health, growth and survival. It's the glue that holds everything together and makes sure the Bitcoin economy has a say in case something goes wrong with the development. Ideally a contentious fork would forever remain a theoretical possibility - but if it is possible it means it can happen, and that's what we're seeing right now. Rejecting a fork on the grounds that it's a fork is wrong.
Of course, there are reasons to reject Bitcoin-XT on the grounds that its timing and method are wrong. The objection to the technical change was too strong to just gloss over it. We're definitely not anywhere near the point where Pieter, Greg or Wladimir can be conceivably considered rogue and we should break away from them. Mike and Gavin have, quite arrogantly I would say, assumed that this is just like any other software change and that virtually everyone will just automatically follow them, where the reality is far from it. They didn't properly consider the consequences of making this move without enough support. (They might reply that they have been fighting for this for a long time and exhausted all other options, but I don't accept this - they made many attempts at persuasion, but not enough at compromise).
So here we are, having to choose between two bad alternatives. The mere act of choosing commits, in my opinion, the logical fallacy of privileging the hypothesis. There are millions of possible approaches, and "someone" out there restricted them to just 2. Most of the decision process (culling from millions to 2) was made for me and I'm left rubber-stamping one of the choices that remain. (See also http://lesswrong.com/lw/mi/stop_voting_for_nincompoops/).
But hey, even a noisy bit contains some information, and the question was asked, so...
Given the choice between short-term sticking with 1MB or going all the way to 8MB, I am in favor of going to 8MB.
Given the choice between sticking with Bitcoin Core or switching to Bitcoin-XT, I am in slight favor of sticking with Bitcoin Core, but that could change any time.

You make it out like he is gung-ho "team core", as you like to put it, but at the end he says he is only "in slight favor" of core over xt and that his preference could change at any time.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
October 14, 2015, 12:01:00 PM
#29
Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us?  

Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.

The only people "leading a war" are you Gavinista insurgents.

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Quote
Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Team Gavincoin defected from the consensus of Bitcoin's socioeconomic majority by openly declaring their hostile technical and political intentions.

The last things we want are "reconciliation and concensus" with such sworn enemies.

They will come crawling back, having surrendered unconditionally, or Team Core will continue to exist without them and be better for their absence.

Enjoy your shadowban.   Wink

Then enjoy your war and  your full time hyperventilation  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
October 14, 2015, 11:49:19 AM
#28
Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us?  

Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.

The only people "leading a war" are you Gavinista insurgents.

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Quote
Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Team Gavincoin defected from the consensus of Bitcoin's socioeconomic majority by openly declaring their hostile technical and political intentions.

The last things we want are "reconciliation and concensus" with such sworn enemies.

They will come crawling back, having surrendered unconditionally, or Team Core will continue to exist without them and be better for their absence.

Enjoy your shadowban.   Wink
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
October 14, 2015, 11:32:06 AM
#27
Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us?  

Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.
legendary
Activity: 3976
Merit: 1421
Life, Love and Laughter...
October 14, 2015, 11:27:09 AM
#26
Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us? 
legendary
Activity: 3976
Merit: 1421
Life, Love and Laughter...
October 14, 2015, 11:20:21 AM
#25
Oh don't be butthurt.  Everything is fine man.  Let's all be happy we're still here, living in a time of peace and prosperity.

As for

Quote
You're lucky you can come along for the ride.

No, Bitcoin is lucky that there are a lot of appreciative people willing to come along for the ride.  Without them, there will be no adoption that you're all hoping for.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
October 14, 2015, 11:15:01 AM
#24
You know theymos doesn't  tolerate posts like the above on his other moderate forums.
And he closed thread on this one that touch on the heart of the issues.

Just because you're allowed post in ignorant bliss does not mean nobody cares.

Some of us are actually invested in the success of Bitcoin as originally designed.

You're lucky you can come along for the ride.
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