When Bitcoin will become fungible like Monero?

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Quote from: HeroCat on September 08, 2016, 09:33:44 AM

Bitcoin will not be anonymous as Monero, currently there is not such Bitcoin technology, so Monero of course have large advantages in the crypto market. Bitcoin have advantage in the market as largest crypto coin and Nr. 1 in the world Grin

It can be anonymous according to John Connor. He is developing Vcash and chain blender and according to him chain blender can be added in bitcoin as a solution to make personal anonymity possible. I hope we can find someone who can refute this claim and start a new discussion about it. It will be an interesting topic.

Here is the statement of John Connor about chain blender.

"Therefore the Vcash client-side blending solution is the best currently existing for personal anonymity and can be added to any crypto-asset including Bitcoin in a backwards compatible manner and it is 100% LE proof"

https://v.cash/forum/threads/a-few-questions-about-chainblender.474/

HeroCat

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Bitcoin will not be anonymous as Monero, currently there is not such Bitcoin technology, so Monero of course have large advantages in the crypto market. Bitcoin have advantage in the market as largest crypto coin and Nr. 1 in the world Grin

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Antibarcode on August 28, 2016, 10:36:50 AM

So what is your opinion when Bitcoin will become fungible?

Basically never. You can't do it while you use the public blockchain.
And whoever will say that mixers already achieve that for Bitcoin is lying.

Such change would be too big to be done for Bitcoin and, let's face it, even much smaller and more important changes are not implemented yet.
And such change will make bitcoin become something else, not bitcoin anymore.

Febo

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Quote from: Alphagog on September 08, 2016, 03:00:32 AM

Quote from: Antibarcode on August 28, 2016, 10:36:50 AM

Monero will rise until September 1 when Alphabay will add it to payment system, then we will see another spike from darknet transactions, then it will grow slowly until new crypto release with more functions or Bitcoin will create something more impressive than CoinJoin transactions.

So what is your opinion when Bitcoin will become fungible?

Today is 8th of September. Is there any increase in the transaction of the Monero? I do not see much spike of the price.

Actually on 1st Sept price was 0.015 and later 0,.024 and now 0.019. so there was a spike.

Thing is dark markets adoption was put in price a week before soon after announcement and even a bit before. That is how it is in crypto.
It was done in speculative way. So could be wrong and price could fall or raise in upcoming weeks.

But there is huge XMR volume, what pulled interest of many. Market cap raised, what opened doors to monero to wealthier investors. Price spikes made media to start write about Monero. That brought more people get interested in Monero in general.

So all this that happened, will leave some results even if dark markets dump Monero tomorrow.

About transactions.

Last week was on average 3.46 transactions / block
Last month was on average 1.98 transactions / block
Last year was on average 0.52 transactions / block

So transactiosn almost doubled last week, when dark markets was operational. But you need to understand that 3 weeks of last month this was already expected. So i am sure this jump is way higher if we compare last week with week 5 weeks ago.

Alphagog

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Quote from: Antibarcode on August 28, 2016, 10:36:50 AM

Monero will rise until September 1 when Alphabay will add it to payment system, then we will see another spike from darknet transactions, then it will grow slowly until new crypto release with more functions or Bitcoin will create something more impressive than CoinJoin transactions.

So what is your opinion when Bitcoin will become fungible?

Today is 8th of September. Is there any increase in the transaction of the Monero? I do not see much spike of the price.

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Quote from: canth on August 29, 2016, 07:30:22 PM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 28, 2016, 09:22:44 PM

What if bitcoin users use Monero as a layer to make their BTC fungible. Or maybe develop a sidechain that uses ring signatures. Would that be a good idea? The development team of bitcoin should surely be taking Monero seriously now that there is a real and big market that is already to accept it.

Sidechains are not trustworthy today - they require you to trust the federated peg keyholders. There isn't even a pull request with code in the works to make fullly pegged sidechains work today and therefore it's my opinion that we're looking at 2 years out, minimum.

Ok. So maybe the better way is to use decentralized exchanges with bitcoin as the base currency and treat the decentralized exchange as the "layer" for transfer from bitcoin to XMR. The problem is nobody is interested in using them. It shows because the Bitsquare orderbook is very thin.

canth

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 28, 2016, 09:22:44 PM

What if bitcoin users use Monero as a layer to make their BTC fungible. Or maybe develop a sidechain that uses ring signatures. Would that be a good idea? The development team of bitcoin should surely be taking Monero seriously now that there is a real and big market that is already to accept it.

Sidechains are not trustworthy today - they require you to trust the federated peg keyholders. There isn't even a pull request with code in the works to make fullly pegged sidechains work today and therefore it's my opinion that we're looking at 2 years out, minimum.

bbc.reporter

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What if bitcoin users use Monero as a layer to make their BTC fungible. Or maybe develop a sidechain that uses ring signatures. Would that be a good idea? The development team of bitcoin should surely be taking Monero seriously now that there is a real and big market that is already to accept it.

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FUD Philanthropist™

Quote from: generalizethis on August 28, 2016, 12:08:55 PM

Quote from: Ayers on August 28, 2016, 12:03:35 PM

monero is fungile where? non fungibily of bitcoin is only because some exchange have declared that some coin are not worth like other, because they are sued or something, but this has nothign to do with real bitcoin fungibility imho

That's the point--the fact that chain analysis is making Bitcoin less fungible in less places. Monero is still fungible in these places. Technology is a moving target, so you must adjust your sights continually.

Why did you create that Noob account to post this Mr. Fungable ?
You are literally the only person who brings this up here.
And i bet you pulled and old trick..
The ole create a topic so you can answer it yourself routine. Cheesy

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Quote from: Andretti83 on August 28, 2016, 11:20:05 AM

Quote from: manselr on August 28, 2016, 10:47:37 AM

since the blockchain as far as I remember, had some really big scaling problems since it was too big.

3.1 GB isn't that big.

Really? Now imagine XMR has the same trading volume as Bitcoin does, its blockchain will grow in gigantic proportions. If the developers can work on that aspect, then the coin has a chance of staying among the top 4.

smoothie

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My prediction is never. Bitcoin will never have the property of fungibility at the socio-economical level.

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: Ayers on August 28, 2016, 12:10:48 PM

Quote from: generalizethis on August 28, 2016, 12:08:55 PM

Quote from: Ayers on August 28, 2016, 12:03:35 PM

monero is fungile where? non fungibily of bitcoin is only because some exchange have declared that some coin are not worth like other, because they are sued or something, but this has nothign to do with real bitcoin fungibility imho

That's the point--the fact that chain analysis is making Bitcoin less fungible in less places. Monero is still fungible in these places. Technology is a moving target, so you must adjust your sights continually.

but this only come down to traceability in the end, and basically every crypto that is not 100% anonymous is declared non-fungible, this is stupid, why exchange are evaluating those stolen coins less? because it was said by the government? bitcoin say fuck you to government, so this is another decentralized problem it seems, because a decentralized exchange would evaluate every bitcoin the same

Better blockchain analysis combined with Coinbase and Circle's adherence to KYC rules (and BTC-e's reaction to the Evolution theft) created the reality the dark markets are responding to--if creating more and more complex solutions (that increase inconvenience) for users is the answer, then Bitcoin isn't the solution.

canth

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Quote from: manselr on August 28, 2016, 10:47:37 AM

Quote from: Antibarcode on August 28, 2016, 10:36:50 AM

Monero will rise until September 1 when Alphabay will add it to payment system, then we will see another spike from darknet transactions, then it will grow slowly until new crypto release with more functions or Bitcoin will create something more impressive than CoinJoin transactions.

So what is your opinion when Bitcoin will become fungible?

I guess we will have to wait until next year. We will eventually have confidential transactions and mimblewimble, this should be enough privacy. Im not sure if it will be enough to compete against Monero, but then again im not sure if Monero can be a functional coin if transaction volume keeps getting higher, since the blockchain as far as I remember, had some really big scaling problems since it was too big.

I hold plenty of Bitcoin, so I'm no hater. With that said, there's no way in hell that we get anything approaching Monero fungibility in 2017. It's taken how long to get Segwit soft-forked into use? 12 months since the Scaling conference last year this time?

For Confidential Transactions to be useful we need pegged side chains, which don't exist today - only federated side chains, requiring you to trust people holding keys with your money. Pegged side chains aren't even on the roadmap today.

I think we're looking at 2018 at the earliest.

Ayers

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Quote from: generalizethis on August 28, 2016, 12:08:55 PM

Quote from: Ayers on August 28, 2016, 12:03:35 PM

monero is fungile where? non fungibily of bitcoin is only because some exchange have declared that some coin are not worth like other, because they are sued or something, but this has nothign to do with real bitcoin fungibility imho

That's the point--the fact that chain analysis is making Bitcoin less fungible in less places. Monero is still fungible in these places. Technology is a moving target, so you must adjust your sights continually.

but this only come down to traceability in the end, and basically every crypto that is not 100% anonymous is declared non-fungible, this is stupid, why exchange are evaluating those stolen coins less? because it was said by the government? bitcoin say fuck you to government, so this is another decentralized problem it seems, because a decentralized exchange would evaluate every bitcoin the same

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: Ayers on August 28, 2016, 12:03:35 PM

monero is fungile where? non fungibily of bitcoin is only because some exchange have declared that some coin are not worth like other, because they are sued or something, but this has nothign to do with real bitcoin fungibility imho

That's the point--the fact that chain analysis is making Bitcoin less fungible in less places. Monero is still fungible in these places. Technology is a moving target, so you must adjust your sights continually.

Ayers

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non fungibily of bitcoin is only because some exchange have declared that some coin are not worth like other, because they are sued or something, but this has nothing to do with real bitcoin fungibility imho, it's like the government declare today that stolen fiat are worth less, lol, in other word this is something done by us not by the bitcoin system, so bitcoin is fungible

Andretti83

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Quote from: manselr on August 28, 2016, 10:47:37 AM

since the blockchain as far as I remember, had some really big scaling problems since it was too big.

3.1 GB isn't that big.

CraigWrightBTC

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Quote from: Antibarcode on August 28, 2016, 10:36:50 AM

So what is your opinion when Bitcoin will become fungible?

I don't think bitcoin will become fungible like monero because it is new coin, although there are many innovation and supporting. it still needs time and if it is happening so world of cryptos currencies has changed. And bitcoin must have more innovation.

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Quote from: amacar2 on August 28, 2016, 11:10:35 AM

Quote from: Alphagog on August 28, 2016, 10:43:15 AM

If the Alphabay is crashed by the police, will the Monero price drop a lot?
I think Monero is good for anonymous transaction, not for bad usage.

Than other darknet market will open again and if they also accept monero than price may become stable. Talking about good or bad usuage, coin itself shouldn't be blamed, the one who uses them badly should be responsible for bad usage. Wink

exactly, the coin is bad or good is depend from the user, how they used the coin. i think maybe bitcoin is like crypto exchanger or mother of crypto, so bitcoin can not compare with monero. the problem with bitcoin is big transaction on blockchain and can make slow confirmations, beside that, for syncronize its really need more time to download all blocks. but maybe i'm wrong, so i applogize.

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Quote from: Alphagog on August 28, 2016, 10:43:15 AM

If the Alphabay is crashed by the police, will the Monero price drop a lot?
I think Monero is good for anonymous transaction, not for bad usage.

Than other darknet market will open again and if they also accept monero than price may become stable. Talking about good or bad usuage, coin itself shouldn't be blamed, the one who uses them badly should be responsible for bad usage. Wink

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