Where are the coins for Winkelvoss Trust & 2nd Market Bitcoin Investment Fund? - page 2.

User705

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 24, 2013, 12:28:47 AM

Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:53:32 PM

It's hard to verify gold holdings because of security concerns and metal authenticity testing. Bitcoin holdings are easy to verify. Sign a message from the address. Wouldn't surprise me if these "Trusts" throw out some BS "security" "auditing" excuse for not revealing the actual address. I read the winkelvoss prospectus. No address in there that I could find. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1579346/000119312513393903/d562329ds1a.htm

Why would a trust which doesn't yet exist and own no coins list an address?

This is our empty Bitcoin addres ....

Also anyone thinking it will be a single address needs to get their head checked. The ETF allows direct redemption I doubt the funds want to unlock a wallet with a single address containing potentially hundreds of millions of dollars someday for every redemption. Risk management and all that. I mean MtGox doesn't use a single address why would an ETF?

So they should never post addresses with the coins that are supposed to back this ETF? Gold ETFs at least release gold bar serial numbers.

User705

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Quote from: bobdude17 on October 24, 2013, 12:03:51 AM

Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 11:55:54 PM

How would they be multi billionaires if they sold the coins in the trust? The buyers would be rich how does that make them rich? Also I never claimed they are frauds but there are many different frauds. They may have gotten the investment first then went to buy coins. Also how do you know the coins aren't hypothecated to many other trusts? You can have plenty of trusts and show the same coins to many different auditors. Again why wouldn't the trusts show their coins?

If you haven't understood the value of these trusts, how important they will be(are) to bitcoin gaining mainstream acceptance, and badly the trust holders want to shake bitcoin's stigma of illegal activity by now, then I'm just not going to be able to get to you.

I concede. Tongue

I think you and possibly others need to concede that you don't want bitcoin to change anything. You're operating on the greater fool theory hoping to sell on your bitcoins to someone down the line for more fiat then you spent on them. And that's an ok motivation. These trusts are the exact opposite what bitcoin is for and it's fine to have the desire to make money just don't pretend these trusts are of any benefit besides raising the exchange rate. What's the point of decentralization if it's all bunched into ETFs. If most users don't mine or even hold wallets and just buy ETF shares then all users are at the mercy of a few big miners that will mine. If most "investors" don't bother to know the ins and outs of even basic crypto then they are at the whim of developers that wish to change the protocol. These risks are even spelled out in the SEC prospectus.

Hfleer

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Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:31:04 PM

Recent history is littered with worthless derivatives and financial shenanigans. Bitcoin promises a solution but ... Winklevoss trust and Second Market Bitcoin Investment Fund promise safety and security but where are the coins? None of their paperwork seem to show it. If anyone has a public address for their coins please post it. Otherwise these "Trusts" are nothing more then empty paper.

True and I think holders could reasonably expect to be shown the address where their coins are being held. I wonder what progress the ETF is making currently?

Phinnaeus Gage

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Quote

C. Investment in Bitcoins
At [ ], 2013, the Trust owned [ ],000 Bitcoins, with a carrying value (lower of cost or market basis) of $[ ].

Quote

WINKLEVOSS BITCOIN TRUST

[ ],000,000 WINKLEVOSS BITCOIN SHARES

Until [ ], 2013 (25 calendar days after the date of this prospectus), all dealers effecting transactions in the Shares, whether or not participating in this distribution, may be required to deliver a prospectus. This requirement is in addition to the obligations of dealers to deliver a prospectus when acting as underwriters and with respect to unsold allotments or subscriptions.[/size]

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:53:32 PM

It's hard to verify gold holdings because of security concerns and metal authenticity testing. Bitcoin holdings are easy to verify. Sign a message from the address. Wouldn't surprise me if these "Trusts" throw out some BS "security" "auditing" excuse for not revealing the actual address. I read the winkelvoss prospectus. No address in there that I could find. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1579346/000119312513393903/d562329ds1a.htm

Why would a trust which doesn't yet exist and own no coins list an address?

This is our empty Bitcoin addres ....

Also anyone thinking it will be a single address needs to get their head checked. The ETF allows direct redemption I doubt the funds want to unlock a wallet with a single address containing potentially hundreds of millions of dollars someday for every redemption. Risk management and all that. I mean MtGox doesn't use a single address why would an ETF?

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: theonewhowaskazu on October 24, 2013, 12:00:13 AM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on October 23, 2013, 11:59:19 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:31:04 PM

Recent history is littered with worthless derivatives and financial shenanigans. Bitcoin promises a solution but ... Winklevoss trust and Second Market Bitcoin Investment Fund promise safety and security but where are the coins? None of their paperwork seem to show it. If anyone has a public address for their coins please post it. Otherwise these "Trusts" are nothing more then empty paper.

you are right. investing in the trust is not holding btc.

it is like investing in a gold etf, you dont hold gold...

There was a guy in Nevada once that did this but with silver. Now, what was his name again?

Just FYI I have no idea what you're referring to.

http://www.mynews3.com/content/news/story/James-Ray-The-Silver-King-Houston-dead-at-66/PBuDmtPW60WSB9kDsWc3rg.cspx

windjc

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Quote from: bobdude17 on October 23, 2013, 11:46:38 PM

Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 11:37:34 PM

Either bitcoin stays small and it doesn't much matter if Ernst and Young audits anything or bitcoin is huge then there certainly will be enough money to "bribe" Ernst and Young. Bribes in the current market world are very subtle. Read the Lehman stuff and all the trusts offering paperwork. They are responsible for nothing. They can make all kinds of repo, and other purchase agreements and then oops we never got the bitcoins or oops we lost the private key, oops some other country outlawed bitcoins, oops the coins were tainted and we have to turn them over to cops. Insiders will know first and sell shares first.

And if it gets big they will be multi billionaires. Why risk going to prison when they would insanely rich legally? Why risk their reputation? Again, the incentives just aren't there. They have much more incentive to play above the table, and so does E&Y.

Look, I understand that is much safer to just own your coins, fucking obviously.

But saying that the proposed ETF and and the SecondMarket Trust are frauds because they didn't post their address so you could check it on blockchain.info is absolutely ludicrous.
These investment vehicles are in a different class. People want a regulated trust they can throw their hedge funds and IRAs at and have somebody for their lawyers to sue if something goes wrong with that trust.

You really really need to punctuate your posts with "Biatch!"

bobdude17

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Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 11:55:54 PM

How would they be multi billionaires if they sold the coins in the trust? The buyers would be rich how does that make them rich? Also I never claimed they are frauds but there are many different frauds. They may have gotten the investment first then went to buy coins. Also how do you know the coins aren't hypothecated to many other trusts? You can have plenty of trusts and show the same coins to many different auditors. Again why wouldn't the trusts show their coins?

If you haven't understood the value of these trusts, how important they will be(are) to bitcoin gaining mainstream acceptance, and badly the trust holders want to shake bitcoin's stigma of illegal activity by now, then I'm just not going to be able to get to you.

I concede. Tongue

theonewhowaskazu

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on October 23, 2013, 11:59:19 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:31:04 PM

Recent history is littered with worthless derivatives and financial shenanigans. Bitcoin promises a solution but ... Winklevoss trust and Second Market Bitcoin Investment Fund promise safety and security but where are the coins? None of their paperwork seem to show it. If anyone has a public address for their coins please post it. Otherwise these "Trusts" are nothing more then empty paper.

you are right. investing in the trust is not holding btc.

it is like investing in a gold etf, you dont hold gold...

There was a guy in Nevada once that did this but with silver. Now, what was his name again?

Just FYI I have no idea what you're referring to.

Phinnaeus Gage

legendary

Activity: 1918

Merit: 1570

Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:31:04 PM

Recent history is littered with worthless derivatives and financial shenanigans. Bitcoin promises a solution but ... Winklevoss trust and Second Market Bitcoin Investment Fund promise safety and security but where are the coins? None of their paperwork seem to show it. If anyone has a public address for their coins please post it. Otherwise these "Trusts" are nothing more then empty paper.

you are right. investing in the trust is not holding btc.

it is like investing in a gold etf, you dont hold gold...

There was a guy in Nevada once that did this but with silver. Now, what was his name again?

User705

legendary

Activity: 896

Merit: 1006

First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

How would they be multi billionaires if they sold the coins in the trust? The buyers would be rich how does that make them rich? Also I never claimed they are frauds but there are many different frauds. They may have gotten the investment first then went to buy coins. Also how do you know the coins aren't hypothecated to many other trusts? You can have plenty of trusts and show the same coins to many different auditors. Again why wouldn't the trusts show their coins?

theonewhowaskazu

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Activity: 448

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If Bitcoin got really big, chances are they'd just tell people what their ETF holdings are. After all, people always can just ask for their Bitcoins (there is a minimum amount which is fairly large, I forget the exact requirement) from the fund. If somebody came up to you and said "either give me my BTC & I won't pay you my 5% yearly, or I'll continue to pay you your 5% yearly and you can keep my BTC but you have to tell me where that BTC is" obviously they'd just tell people where the BTC is.

bobdude17

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Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 11:37:34 PM

Either bitcoin stays small and it doesn't much matter if Ernst and Young audits anything or bitcoin is huge then there certainly will be enough money to "bribe" Ernst and Young. Bribes in the current market world are very subtle. Read the Lehman stuff and all the trusts offering paperwork. They are responsible for nothing. They can make all kinds of repo, and other purchase agreements and then oops we never got the bitcoins or oops we lost the private key, oops some other country outlawed bitcoins, oops the coins were tainted and we have to turn them over to cops. Insiders will know first and sell shares first.

And if it gets big they will be multi billionaires. Why risk going to prison when they would insanely rich legally? Why risk their reputation? Again, the incentives just aren't there. They have much more incentive to play above the table, and so does E&Y.

Look, I understand that is much safer to just own your coins, fucking obviously.

But saying that the proposed ETF and and the SecondMarket Trust are frauds because they didn't post their address so you could check it on blockchain.info is absolutely ludicrous.
These investment vehicles are in a different class. People want a regulated trust they can throw their hedge funds and IRAs at and have somebody for their lawyers to sue if something goes wrong with that trust.

User705

legendary

Activity: 896

Merit: 1006

First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

Either bitcoin stays small and it doesn't much matter if Ernst and Young audits anything or bitcoin is huge then there certainly will be enough money to "bribe" Ernst and Young. Bribes in the current market world are very subtle. Read the Lehman stuff and all the trusts offering paperwork. They are responsible for nothing. They can make all kinds of repo, and other purchase agreements and then oops we never got the bitcoins or oops we lost the private key, oops some other country outlawed bitcoins, oops the coins were tainted and we have to turn them over to cops. Insiders will know first and sell shares first.

Peter Todd

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Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:31:04 PM

Recent history is littered with worthless derivatives and financial shenanigans. Bitcoin promises a solution but ... Winklevoss trust and Second Market Bitcoin Investment Fund promise safety and security but where are the coins? None of their paperwork seem to show it. If anyone has a public address for their coins please post it. Otherwise these "Trusts" are nothing more then empty paper.

FWIW There's a number of cryptographic techniques such as merkle sum trees and pay-to-contract that you can use with crypto-currencies to make it easy for anyone holding Bitcoin's on behalf of someone else to prove to their owners that the account balances are 100% backed by actual Bitcoins.

If the Winklevoss fund or any similar venture wants to use these technologies I'd be happy to discuss the matter further with them. This kind of proof could be a strong competitive advantage over competitors that don't have it; customers should demand cryptographic proof that each and every balance is backed 100% by actual Bitcoins.

bobdude17

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Obviously not referring to morality, as that doesn't matter in the financial world.

They don't have enough money to bribe E&Y, who have over 175,000 employees.
And if they were caught they would have so much to lose and so little to gain. What would be the endgame?
Barry Silbert stands to make so much more money by running the Trust honestly.

Why the fuck would you run around trying to bribe E&Y with your pocket change, to have them tell the world that you have the coins when you really don't, when you are trying to gain bitcoin acceptance in legitimate markets?
E&Y wouldn't risk their reputation for such child's play, SecondMarket would never risk theirs, as they have so much more possible money to make keeping it on the up & up. Bitcoin is in the limelight right now, they are trying to make it as professional as possible.

User705

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First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

Yeah you are right Ernst and Young are a good firm and would never ...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/18/us-lehmanbros-investors-idUSBRE99H12W20131018

bobdude17

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Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 11:12:17 PM

I think you are somewhat slow. Do you think winkelvoss trust or bitcoin investment fund don't pay their auditors? You think Ernst and Young do it for free.

Which means what? They are going to pay off E&Y?

You make me laugh.

User705

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First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

I think you are somewhat slow. Do you think winkelvoss trust or bitcoin investment fund don't pay their auditors? You think Ernst and Young do it for free. Oh and btw all addresses are publicly viewable. That's the point of bitcoin.

bobdude17

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Quote from: User705 on October 23, 2013, 10:54:10 PM

Quote from: bobdude17 on October 23, 2013, 10:52:41 PM

Both the SecondMarket Trust and the ETF(will be) are audited. By 3rd parties.

These are non-concerns.

Why would you need to PAY an auditor to verify coins in a bitcoin address?

Are you serious? Why would you PAY an auditor to verify an SEC approved ETF that will share the same the same space as SPDR? I don't even know where to begin with that...
Like they would hold all the coins in one publicly viewable address?! Roll Eyes

Anyway,
The Bitcoin Investment Trust is audited by Ersnt & Young. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_&_Young
Do at least some research.

Topic: Where are the coins for Winkelvoss Trust & 2nd Market Bitcoin Investment Fund? - page 2. (Read 3332 times)