Topic: Where are the guts of NATO & the US? (Read 366 times)

its pretty simple
nato is a membership. meaning you gotta pay to get in and use its services.
if it started offering its services for free no one would pay to be a member

nato wont break its member contract and help out a non member directly as it sends a message to the current members that they dont need to be members to get neto support. thus undoing nato.

so nato would rather do nothing and keep its members(and their fees) than step up to help a potential future member

I think that they (NATO and US) are not "powerless" against Russia, but they are seeing how things go. They also don't want to make matters more complex, by imposing sanctions that would make Putin even crazier than this. Especially after Putin issued a statement that if any country intervened in their actions, they would see something that had never happened in history, this statement that I think made NATO and the US think twice about wanting to intervene directly. Hopefully the dialogue between Ukraine and Russia in the second session will find a solution to this problem.

               TBH, I really don't know anymore. I just tried reading more about this and seems like Russia and US had agreement that US will not expand even an inch towards the east but the US did so plenty of times it even has missile assemblies on Romania and Poland and now they want UK as well to he oart of NATO, goals simply look fishy. Which is why Putin sees this as an insult and an act of deceiving Russia. But then again it was just a verbal agreement, and UKR already has every right to be free and in fact was the one who made an application for NATO. I am so confused with everything at the moment. Seems information is lacking about this issue between the US and Russia to really point out who needs to be blamed. One thing is clear though, their egos make this thing last longer than it should and is now affecting a lot of people. :/

My ultimate fears still revolve around the true mental stability of Putin, and whether he's mentally capable of standing down, at this point in his political, and mortal, life... or if he sees this as his 'final hurrah'.

Putin's approval ratings in Russia seem to have been declining somewhat quickly the past 4-5 years, and I don't think the invasion will help those ratings, and he probably knows that. He's getting older. He has weapons he hasn't used yet, which are deployed. He's not a guy who appears he is going to walk away and accept a loss at this point.

I do hope I'm wrong, because if he begins to use some of the weapons, like the "flamethrower", we are probably heading towards an eventual deployment of a nuclear weapon on some level, probably one the world has never seen, and probably the end of life as we know it.. and ya, that's depressing.

That said, it is inspiring to see Ukrainians putting up this type of fight.. Russia is definitely not getting what they expected, and I'm starting to see support from all over the world for Ukranians, more closed airspaces, additional sanctions (finally), companies speaking out and cutting ties with Russia, etc.. which is good stuff, they need every bit of help they can get.
Even Klitschko got in on the action.

While I do realize it is a sensitive situation, from a NATO/US perspective, if someone like Putin is allowed to take another country such as Ukraine, with its unique strategic location for further conflict, it seems equivalent to [militarily] shooting one's self in the foot before getting into an eventual boxing match with someone who just put on a new pair of loaded gloves.. this is of course assuming Putin succeeds in taking Ukraine.. which I really hope he does not.  

Keep up the good fight, Ukrainians.

Thats not fair actually. Provided thry try that, Im pretty sure their chance of success is less than 5& or could be much lower. Russia loves Putin and they are good on cyber info, if there is an information about a plan like that surely Russian Intelligence would know right away. Plus killing him would let the people of Russia revolted and retaliate.

You guys realise that WW3 will be the end of life on earth, right? I know some idiots are feeling extremely heroic, despite not going to Ukraine to fight themselves, for some reason....

But there's a reason why everyone is so careful. Because we don't want nukes involved. Especially those moving at supersonic speeds (currently impossible to counter).

The west fucked up with Ukraine. I give full responsibility to the west for dancing on eggshells instead of admitting Ukraine to NATO. Now its too late. Most we can do is wait and watch Ukraine fall.

Well, I think that although the loss of any human life is a tragedy and should be avoided, from what Putin has done to wanting to conquer the whole world and gassing millions of people because he considers them subhuman there is a still a tiny difference.

Although as I said before, I would be on the lookout in case things escalate. But as much as we perceive Putin as a bully (or much worse) who we'd like to beat up, destroying all of humanity is a prospect no one likes, which is why NATO hasn't sent troops to Ukraine.

If Putin didn't have nukes it would be a different story. I don't doubt that Nato would have sent a bunch of troops to defend Ukraine.

Why do you think Gadaffi died the way he did and the president of North Korea is alive? Gadaffi signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, while Kim Jong-un has a few dozen nuclear weapons. That's a game changer. If Kim Jong-un didn't have a few nukes he would be dead for a while now.

In International politics might is right, no one owns the globe. It's left for Ukraine to stand up and be defensive to themselves rather than waiting on the USA to intervene. Cause as far as those missiles are not dropping on USA soil, it's only going to be from one sanction to another while Ukrainian are bearing the brunt.

This incident of Ukraine will actually be a game changing event in global geo poltics, US has lost all it's reputation as a saviour of small countries. Moving forward all the countries will intend to be self sufficient in terms of their defense need, don't be surprised if you even see Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons being torn apart by many countries. Countries would realise keeping nukes is the only options to counter big giants having nukes themselves. UN already didn't had any reputation we all know. Don't be surprised if now countries leave their alliance with US even if that gives them that bad boy image around the world.

These things might get out of hand way too quickly. One misstep and boom the next thing we see will be nukes flying everywhere. The thing is, it is hard to sanction Russia when they are the biggest energy supplier of EU. Biden himself said something similar to this if I am not mistaken. "We will sanction Russia but we will keep buying their oil because we don't want the Europeans freeze to death." How is you gonna sanction Russia when their only and the biggest export is Oil/Gas? That don't make any sense.

This ignores decades, centuries of history since before the US even existed. Pretty much immediately after the fall of the Soviet Union and the "block", most newly-independent countries started looking for defense from Russia's aggression, which they felt was inevitable sooner or later. 50+ years - and in some cases 200+ years - of repressive occupation tends to do that to nations.

Ironically this probably benefited Russia quite a bit. Instead of subsidizing half of Europe with energy and military resources as it did post WW2, it could now sell oil/gas (including to its former "blockmates"), let NATO take care of their military needs, and cash in on increased trade with the growing new economies.

But that apparently "provoked" a senile KGBist - trying to disguise his shaking hands by holding onto a desk - into declaring war on an independent country.

This makes no sense to anyone, probably not even to ordinary Russians, but that's what Kremlin's propaganda says and you're helpfully spreading the message.

               Well, maybe I do get carried away and may have a bit of misinformation on my part but as far as what I can see, Ukraine is the origin of Russia and all throughout the years, US has been expanding influence with clear goals of suppressing Russia. With their actions it's really not that difficult to understand. And now things has reached this point, the US barely does anything to prevent the deaths from happening. Don't get me wrong though, no matter the cause, win or lose,  whether you manage to protect or not or however the hell it is sugarcoated, war is a pointless exercise. What I am trying to point out is the possibility of all these nonsense not happening had the US thought about their actions more carefully and didn't continue to provoke Russia.

Hasn't he already reached hitler status by invading Ukraine in this fashion?  He has said he is seeking to "denazify" the country. He's inhumane, and his actions do resemble hitler.. a narcissistic psychopath, a mad man.

No country should be allowed to walk into another country (especially one that appears to have close/family ties between their citizens) and tell his soldiers to annihilate anyone who opposes them. For nobody to really be helping defend Ukranians, human beings, feels as bad as when people turned their heads while Jews were being slaughtered by hitler.

Seems like Ukranians get a choice to fight (and likely die), flee the country (best choice at this point IMO, if you even can), or [eventually] join Russia's federation (making it bigger).. but hey, for any struggling with the changes, I'm sure Putin will offer denatzifying education facilities, a.k.a modern day concentration camps to "help" those struggling.

I see your question much more rational than what af_newbie raises who wants to start a war with Putin because he is supposedly able to predict the future.

In fact, Russia is already issuing warnings about finland and Sweden: Russia Issues Ominous Warning to Finland, Sweden Should They Join NATO

If Putin turns out to be a Hitler and, say, invades Poland, be prepared for all-out war. It is one thing to be wary of someone who has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, and another to let a new Hitler start invading countries at will.

Although if I were Biden or any NATO country leader I would put a lot of intelligence and money to try to perform a JFK on Putin right now. I think it would be smarter.

More sanctions might be counter productive. European economy is integrated. Europe needs Russia and Russia needs them. The sanctions are well coordinated to minimize the impact on the economy of nations that depends on Russia for certain goods and services. We know hundreds are dying and we want more sanctions but more sanctions could lead to more death by hunger and poverty

I'm quite sure that sanctions are coordinated with allies and possibly big businesses with the supposed goal of minimizing the impact on the economy. The stock market is just a symptom, not the reason. I don't agree with it, but it's been like that forever, not surprising in the least.

The very first thing we should do is to stop buying oil and gas from this Soviet regime and destroy their pipelines in Europe.

As of today, the US is still buying oil from the Soviets.

 How is the power going out? EMP?.. I would think Putin has more incentive to detonate a nuclear EMP on western countries than western countries would have detonating it on themselves.

You think Biden is picking this path to help the stock market?  Either way, for me, I can't see the stock market being a good reason to let Ukranians be terrorized while we sit around for a month watching.. I think the long-term effects/consequences of this decision is worse than a [likely temporary] dip in the stock market.

What's the plan IF he threatens the same thing to any other country he wants to take over after Ukraine?  

We should do whatever we can to avoid WWIII... but, ya, feels like the match has been lit.  

What is going on between Russia and Ukraine at the moment is a very high level of international politics. I've tried really had to understand the reasons behind this propaganda and my thoughts ties America to it. America is a very smart country and so are American but the propaganda is just so much with Russia putting out a claim that Ukraine is been used like a puppet by America. Fronting it with NATO and creating a NATO bridgehead at Russians borders.

Am still trying to understand Biden's softness on the whole issue but in a way, should Biden go hard on the issue, it would be putting lives at serious risk and his got no right to do that. We don't need a world war III.

This is the result of giving up nuclear weapons. Surely this would not have happened if those nukes Ukraine had in the 90's were still theirs. Not saying destabilized countries should have nuclear weapons, but the least the U.S. could have done is hold up their end of the deal and provide protection to Ukraine.

As with most things, it comes down to greed. Ukraine is useless to the U.S. and all NATO countries, while Russia has the natural resources. So they'll let the country fall as long as the EU gets their oil.

You are right about the sanctions.  The only thing Putin cannot absorb is bombs and bullets.

Unfortunately for Ukraine, they are left to fight alone.

There will be no boots on the ground from the West.  

If I were in NATO command I would immediately plan how to disable Crimea and Belarus.  
Take over Kaliningrad, blow up Nord Stream I and II.  Arrest and intern all Russian citizens abroad.

If I were in the Ukrainian army command, I would order scorched-earth policy, blow up all bridges, railroads, airports, and roads.  
Blow up all gas pipelines from Russia, destroy infrastructure. Prepare for a guerrilla war.

I would suggest to get your head out of Putin's ass, it's unsanitary. He's lying about every bit of this "military operation", including his motives. Provoked little snowflake LOL.

               The inevitable has happened. Right now, the US and the entirety of NATO are powerless over the actions of Russia. A little mistake would ignite a bigger problem. If the US along with the NATO didn't continually provoke Russia time and time again, they never would've even considered taking over Ukraine. Now that things has come to this, the only better option taht I see is to take steps or create plans that would lessen both the economical and structural damages and the casualties. I hope this time the US considers things more carefully.

This situation is the fault of the EU/NATO/The West. After the WW, these countries could have taken the opportunity to become neutral - favour neither the US nor Russia/Eastern Bloc.  

Instead, NATO took the opportunity post-war to expand Eastward, whilst conducting military ops in Serbia and Libya - countries far away from the North Atlantic. NATO stands for the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, yet they've been continuously expanding East over the last few decades, conducting ops in Middle Eastern & Eastern European countries, countries that used to belong to the Soviet Union.

Ukraine are a long way from the North Atlantic, yet the US and Ukraine are so adamant in joining forces - why wouldn't Russia see this as a threat? Russia have a second-rate economy, the only scope they have is aggression, so I don't understand why people are surprised. Putin has been very clear about his intentions - he wants to revivify the Soviet Empire at the distaste of NATO. Whilst I obviously do not agree with Putin's actions, I am part Moldovan which is a very pro-European state, I can't help but think that the West have been 'gaslighting' Russia and the 'East' (Iran, China, etc) for decades. The West underestimate Russia and these Eastern countries so much to the extent that we've been dealing with Russia, made deals with China, Iran, the Taliban, and then we're surprised when those deals aren't adhered to?

We as the West have this belief that everyone wants to live the way we do - freedom of speech, equal rights, etc - this is why we are so gullible when dealing with these Eastern countries.

Putin has been very smart when you consider all sides, Biden pulling out of Afghanistan for no reason was essentially a green-light for a full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, and potentially/probably Taiwan by China. China are probably licking their lips looking at this situation - after all, they invaded Hong Kong last year and no one batted an eye.

Sanctions imply that military action is off the table. Putin knows this, but the West don't seem to understand that Putin can absorb basically any sanction you give him.

The West are weak, the US Government under Democratic leadership are weak - it's no coincidence that Putin has invaded during the last 3 Democratic offices, but not during Trump/Republican offices. Boris Johnson, Prime Minister of the UK where I live, is delusional. Justin Trudeau is tyrannical. Macron is not sane and Germany are stuck on the fence. Knowing this, if you're Russia and China, what is actually stopping you from invading surrounding territories?

Let me explain, the USA and Europe have a comfortable life and don't want to mess with this. They are deep in their comfort zone and strictly don't want to come out from this.

They have guts in fairy-tale-like statements and conferences, when it comes to reality they don't show their guts. I believe, without doubt, western countries are on another level in every aspect compared to Russia but they just don't want to leave their comfort zone until someone directly touches them, they want to avoid this as much as possible and that's very bad!

Ukraine needs our help, if we don't help Ukraine, that means that every country will be punished if they want to integrate Western values and become a part of our family. Russia proves that every country will be punished for that!
The USA and Europe have to understand that you can't be a democrat towards the country that has jungle rules.

If Ukraine failed, then it's sure that Moldova and Georgia will fail and Russian empire will grow and become even more confident and powerful and USA & Europe will become even more pussy.

I don't really understand why Americans choose an old man that has Dementia and can't even properly think & walk.


Sure! I hope that will happen, otherwise, America won't wake up in reality. I don't really want to think that they are such a pussy to give up on Alaska.

What is clear to me is that with people who think like you the world would not have existed for a few decades. The cold war would have ended in total nuclear war.

You are missing the point.  Nuclear weapons will be used whether you like them or not.

He will not stop.  If you think he will stop, you are naive.  Hoping is not a military strategy.

I see. Then NATO has to listen to you and start bombing the country with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world because you are able to see the future.

Putin doesn't care about US sanctions because he was prepared for them for a long time. Russia has only 16% of its reserve in USD. It's a huge country that has the technology to survive without any foreign help. Despite this Putin make a deal with China to trade and the market of china is so big that it can sustain Russia's economy. Putin knew attacking Ukraine would cause heavy sanctions from the west and he already prepared for this situation.

I fucking called it a month ago exactly how he is going to attack Ukraine when every Dick and Mary were 'talking and reaching an agreement of understanding' with Russia.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.59065460

Have you seen that in your crystal ball?


This very morning NATO is going to meet urgently to listen to you and start bombing.

What is another option?  Sit and watch him?  He is going to use the same threat when he attacks Poland, Romania, and Lithuania.
What are you going to do then?  Not call his bluff?

NATO has to start bombing Russian positions in Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia right now.  That is a proper response.
Not talk about sanctions, or talk with your NATO partners.  There is nothing to talk about.  Bombing Russian military positions is the
only sensible option.  Anything else is just pissing in the wind.

If they don't, he will know that they never will, so he will continue annexing countries and rebuilding his dream USSR gulag.

What you call no having guts I call having a brain. While he may not have uttered the words "nuclear weapons", Putin has clearly threatened that if any country meddled in Ukraine he was going to respond immediately with a nuclear strike.

I don't know if you prefer NATO to have guts and start dropping a few thousand nuclear bombs on each side.

One would think if he is bluffing and faced with the prospect of total destruction, if the US or another NATO ally were to send troops into Ukraine, he would ultimately not launch a nuclear strike. But it doesn't seem very smart to try to catch the bluff in this situation.

The United States sometimes is a bully country that bullies other countries with threats of the military and sanctions. They are not always right, and in this case i feel the US has not handled this issue well enough. You can't bully a country like Russia and get anything you want anytime, if Russia says they don't want NATO at their backyard, why stress it when you know that there is a long history between this two countries (Russia and Ukraine). US will react the same way if there was a perceived threat to their National Security. I don't want this getting escalated everything will be affected and this is not the time for it.

Your problem is that you found out there is a Ukraine after Russia invaded it and your media started talking about it in a scary tone, instead of years ago when the problems began. Let me ask you this, what would US do if Russia kept selling weapons to a US neighbor like Cuba and was planning on building their nuclear weapons? The answer is simple, the same thing Russia is doing today.
Same thing is happening with China and Taiwan and I don't see anybody complaining about the escalation with the weapons US keeps selling Taiwan until China invades and is blamed!!!

Where are the guts of NATO & the US?
It's pretty simple politics, they don't give a crap about Ukraine. They were just using it as a source of income (weapons sale) and were hoping to use it as strategic land some day. The project failed and there is no reason to get involved now.
On top of that US military and its allies are at their weakest right now, I'd say one of the weakest in the world. It is evident with all the defeats they've been experiencing over the past 2 decades mainly in West Asia. They weren't even facing any military and yet they were defeated! How are they going to go against an actual military, and a super power for that?

I think the way he attacked Ukraine just shows that he is completely unhinged. He does not care about the sanctions or the economic hardships that ordinary Russians will suffer.

In my estimation, he just wants a place in history as a great Russian leader who restored the Russian Empire.

Unfortunately for him, he will be remembered as an ex-KGB Soviet leader who lost his marbles, tried to re-create the USSR, and started WWIII.

Any of the Western leaders who will try to negotiate with Putin in the future should resign and check themselves into a mental institution.

The West should issue an international arrest warrant for this guy, capture and execute him.

I'm guessing it's either some calculation that stronger sanctions would enrage Putin even more and/or options should be left available if the invasion proceeds - but there is no sign that it wouldn't proceed or that Putin is not sufficiently enraged already, so that probably doesn't make sense - or there is some hard lobbying by businesses that have a lot to lose if e.g. SWIFT transfers are closed. Stock market was very bullish today after the announcement, go figure.

 Yep everyone will be focused on Russia Russia Russia. The US/UK/EU will go to war with them while letting China nab Taiwan sight unseen because China does no wrong because the west moved their labor there. Nothing to see there.... Another thing that will happen is the power will go out in many western countries and the blame will go to Russia when it was all an inside job by the global elite for further control and dominance.

It is funny and sad at the same time.

US tries to avoid WWIII without realizing that Putin has already started it.

Next stop, give us Alaska back.

It appears the "strategy" from NATO & US's actions are going to be allowing Russia to walk in and take over Ukraine / the government, through force, and then will start negotiating to protect the NATO countries around them..?  Why in the hell are the citizens of the Ukraine being sacrificed while we freeze some bank accounts?

Do we really think Putin cares about the sanctions right now..?  Maybe he cares about them in a month from now, but by then how many innocent people would have died?  How much destruction will be caused? How much momentum will a mad man gain by such a minimal response to an invasion?.. is a precedent being set?  How different will (worse) could this situation be in 1 month?

When Biden was asked today by a reporter: "You're confident that these "devastating" sanctions are going to be as devastating as Russian missiles, bullets & tanks?"
Biden: "Yyes, Russian bullets, missiles, and tanks in Ukraine. Yes, I am."  

We aren't even using the full force and capability of the sanctions.. Biden wouldn't answer when asked why he won't sanction Putin today.

He did however respond to:
Reporter: "Respectfully, Sir.. what more are you waiting for?" (relating to SWIFT/Putin not sanctioned)
Biden: "The sanctions we imposed exceed SWIFT.".... "Let's have another conversation in a month or so and see how they've worked out"

I'm disappointed. I feel very bad for the citizens of Ukraine and the soldiers of Russia, and it's truly sad to think how many lives are already lost, and how many future one's are at stake. God speed.