Where is Bitcoin used as store of value, other than the core community?

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: stompix on December 05, 2019, 10:40:08 AM

Currently, there are three, Venezuela, South Sudan, and Zimbabwe.
Argentina, Sudan, and Iran are also experiencing 50% inflation per year.

Holy crap, I wasn't aware of that inflation situation in Sudan and Iran. Sudan doesn't surprise me, but I figured Iran's economy was relatively stable--though I have to admit I don't follow the world economic situation much, or politics, or global news (lol).

I don't know if bitcoin is being used as a store of value even in unstable countries like Venezuela. If the citizens are using it at all, it's probably to pay for things. And my understanding is that even though their local currency is hyperinflated, most people have turned to either the USD or currencies from neighboring countries if they're stable enough. I've heard stories of Dash being widely adopted as a payment method in Venezuela, but I don't know if that's hype or what.

I'm also not sure how many people in those countries are trying to store any value. They're lucky if they have enough money to buy the basic necessities of life most of the time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

hv_

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Quote from: BrewMaster on December 09, 2019, 09:44:30 AM

"store of value" is not something that rises in price. instead it is something that keeps its purchasing power and in modern time money is THE store of value that majority use. and since bitcoin IS money, it is also a store of value. the more it is used as money, the stronger store of value it becomes.

Many will dipute that bitcoin is Money - yet.

Too much friction and volaitily - not really unit of account...

Dart18

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Are we talking about just store of value and not real usage?
Why don't we go one question at a time.

Usage will be a problem, there is not much merchant which accepts it and some country already banned the use of bitcoin or even buying it.
Now, there are countries who doesn't care. So you can do what you want, buy them, store them and just leave it be.
Converting it back to fiat will be the difficult part. Mostly they will let you buy but never go back into selling it for cash.

So, store of value will be easy, that is if you want to keep it for a long time.
But if not, you may want to find a way first into which companies in your place buys bitcoin back for your own currency.

anoufal

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Soon bitcoin will be used outside the community, you just have to wait.

BrewMaster

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"store of value" is not something that rises in price. instead it is something that keeps its purchasing power and in modern time money is THE store of value that majority use. and since bitcoin IS money, it is also a store of value. the more it is used as money, the stronger store of value it becomes.

hv_

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Pure scarcity does not generate a store of value - not even for cool Bitcoin.

Money functions needed!

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: libert19 on December 09, 2019, 08:29:01 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on December 09, 2019, 07:21:21 AM

Bitcoin is not being used only as store of value, it's being used as an investment too.

What's difference between two?

Imho an investment is something one does to gain more money. An investment is made with "extra" money one affords to lose.
On the other side store of value is something one does to avoid losing (too much) value when high inflation is present where one lives. It's something done with money one doesn't afford to lose.

libert19

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You can pay for hotels, flights, services and many more with Bitcoin these days. Just give a Google search. Bitcoin is more than store value, it's just that it has appreciated so much in price since it's inception people like to hodl it.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on December 09, 2019, 07:21:21 AM

Bitcoin is not being used only as store of value, it's being used as an investment too.

What's difference between two?

alyssa85

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Quote from: RooseveltOah on December 05, 2019, 07:43:09 AM

I understand places like Venezuela is due to hyperinflation, anywhere else where this use case thrives?
I’m not talking about the crypto communities by the way.

A lot of hedge funds are getting into cryptocurrency, because it's the only space left where you can make decent returns now that zero interest rates have depressed returns everywhere else.

If you have time, read the following report on hedge funds and cryptocurrency:

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/financial-services/fintech/assets/pwc-elwood-2019-annual-crypto-hedge-fund-report.pdf

It's by Price Waterhouse Coopers, and is 18 pages long, but if gives you an idea of what is going on. They seem to be really keen on alts and ICOs (if you were wondering who want putting money into ICOs, it was them! They were just scaterring money around in the hopes that one of them would be a unicorn Ethereum-style).

NeuroticFish

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Bitcoin is not being used only as store of value, it's being used as an investment too.
But due to its pseudo-anonymous nature, it's hard to give examples. But the logic tells that if there would be no buyers/holders the price would go down sharply.
Probably some day these unknown entities will have their bags full and will start to dictate the price. And we, the rest, will not afford to buy anymore. But this is speculation, I know...

hornbill

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Japan must be a representative place, having fully developed regulation, insurance of hacking (lots personal experiences, haha), payment system for daily consuming goods.
Venezuela and Zimbabwe may be too poor to “store” Bitcoin. I am pretty sure some people, organizations may already hold Bitcoin as gold rather than other financial products in Japan.

amishmanish

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Quote from: Gi01 on December 07, 2019, 04:00:13 AM

I don't know any country that has announced officially that they have approved bitcoin as a store of value but i believe members of this community use it as a store of value. if not so nobody would be holding their bitcoins after it had gained such a huge price on the market in 2017. I love to use more stable cryptocurrencies as a store of value not bitcoin.

When people say "Store" of value, they are basically talking about putting their savings somewhere it will remain safe from:
1. Hyper-Inflation
2. Confiscation
3. Theft (Phycsical or Digital)

1.) Bitcoin doesn't lose value if your home currency gets hyper-inflated. CHECK
2.) If you are crossing the border in times of difficulty, its going to be much easier to conceal/ memorize 12 letters than try to move your self-worth in Cash/ Kind.
3.) If you take standard precautions, you cannot be phished out of your money.

Physical theft is a possibility but when things come to this, you will have to defend. NOTHING is a store of value if you fail to defend your own person. This is the "Store of Value" argument. It does not need "official announcement" or "Government approval". The "stable currencies" have their value tied to fiat. They are not going to preserve your "value/ buying power"

ChrisPop

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I'm sure that now there are many investors who consider putting at least a little % of their portfolio into Bitcoin not just as a speculative investment, but also as a potential hedge against an upcoming crisis. We all know that in the 2008 crisis Gold dropped by ~ 30%! Is that a good hedge for your wealth? - Hell no! - so I don't see why Bitcoin wouldn't be a better deal for them taking into account the before mentioned appreciation potential.

Gi01

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I don't know any country that has announced officially that they have approved bitcoin as a store of value but i believe members of this community use it as a store of value. if not so nobody would be holding their bitcoins after it had gained such a huge price on the market in 2017. I love to use more stable cryptocurrencies as a store of value not bitcoin.

RooseveltOah

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Quote from: stompix on December 05, 2019, 10:40:08 AM

Quote from: RooseveltOah on December 05, 2019, 07:43:09 AM

I understand places like Venezuela is due to hyperinflation, anywhere else where this use case thrives?

Well, d'oh, in countries with hyperinflation.
Currently, there are three, Venezuela, South Sudan, and Zimbabwe.
Argentina, Sudan, and Iran are also experiencing 50% inflation per year.

But I don't know that much about "thriving".

Quote from: avikz on December 05, 2019, 09:38:21 AM

You can use cryptos as a store of value worldwide, it is not limited to any boundary. In particular, you can directly use bitcoin to buy almost anything in countries like Japan and Germany where the governments have legalized it!

Unfortunately, you can't.
Yeah, it's legalized but it doesn't mean shops or businesses are forced to accept bitcoin payments in Germany.
You can't go to Aldi, ReWe, SPAR or Edeka and buy stuff with bitcoins and unfortunately avoiding the big names there are still too few shops accepting bitcoins. Yeah in the big cities you could let's say survive by paying with bitcoins but it would be a nightmare and you will lose so much time you will soon quit.

Note: I'm talking about bitcoin payments, not buying a bitcoin debitcard, not paying with bitpay like services, nothing else.

Yea I certainly agree the hyperinflation countries are obvious targets, what I’m not entirely sure is if it’s really happening, other than Bitcoin the main competitors for store of value in these countries is the USD circulating in the black market in these countries.

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I would say more than a few high networth individuals (HNWI) have found Bitcoin to be a very good store of value. And I'm not talking about Bitcoin millionaires either (those who got rich from being early holders). Talking about those who use family offices and PE and hedge funds to spread their wealth around. It's not exactly them using Bitcoin, they probably just go OTC and then hire a third party custodian (say BitGo) to store their wealth. It may not have the guarantee of a bank/state, but it has proven to be an extremely profitable store of value (should I say magnifier of value?).

RooseveltOah

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Quote from: avikz on December 05, 2019, 09:38:21 AM

You can use cryptos as a store of value worldwide, it is not limited to any boundary. In particular, you can directly use bitcoin to buy almost anything in countries like Japan and Germany where the governments have legalized it!

If you can't find any taker of bitcoin in a particular country, you can simply visit p2p marketplaces like localbitcoins or paxful and convert to fiat! So it's worldwide and not limited to this crypto community only!

Hope this sufficiently answers your question!

Certainly, I’m just trying to find out who’s really using it as store of value, in most countries including Japan and Germany there’s no pain point for people to convert their savings account to Bitcoin, the high interest rate provided by lending platforms out there might help, but I really want to figure out where this will be starting first.

mk4

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Yes. It's pretty much mostly the bitcoin/cryptocurrency people and people in countries that experienced hyperinflation that's holding bitcoin; and this is the exact reason why people in the crypto space always say that we're still in the very early stages of bitcoin's adoption. The masses are simply still very skeptical of bitcoin(which is really to be expected) as it's a very very new asset. It will take time for the people to get used to the existence of bitcoin, as they mostly still see it as a fad.

avikz

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Quote

Yeah in the big cities you could let's say survive by paying with bitcoins but it would be a nightmare and you will lose so much time you will soon quit

That's a practical challenge with bitcoin indeed! That's the reason why it makes sense to use bitcoin linked debit cards instead of using direct bitcoin wallet transfers. No one would like to loose half an hour for a single transaction to get confirmed. LN may solve that issue but bitcoin debit card is a viable option right at this moment! Otherwise conversion to fiat is the last resort!

But any which ways, we are enjoying it as a store of value. Isn't it?

stompix

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Quote from: RooseveltOah on December 05, 2019, 07:43:09 AM

I understand places like Venezuela is due to hyperinflation, anywhere else where this use case thrives?

Well, d'oh, in countries with hyperinflation.
Currently, there are three, Venezuela, South Sudan, and Zimbabwe.
Argentina, Sudan, and Iran are also experiencing 50% inflation per year.

But I don't know that much about "thriving".

Quote from: avikz on December 05, 2019, 09:38:21 AM

You can use cryptos as a store of value worldwide, it is not limited to any boundary. In particular, you can directly use bitcoin to buy almost anything in countries like Japan and Germany where the governments have legalized it!

Unfortunately, you can't.
Yeah, it's legalized but it doesn't mean shops or businesses are forced to accept bitcoin payments in Germany.
You can't go to Aldi, ReWe, SPAR or Edeka and buy stuff with bitcoins and unfortunately avoiding the big names there are still too few shops accepting bitcoins. Yeah in the big cities you could let's say survive by paying with bitcoins but it would be a nightmare and you will lose so much time you will soon quit.

Note: I'm talking about bitcoin payments, not buying a bitcoin debitcard, not paying with bitpay like services, nothing else.

Topic: Where is Bitcoin used as store of value, other than the core community? (Read 295 times)