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Topic: Which Altcoin has the highest number of full nodes? Which is most decentralized? - page 2. (Read 1376 times)

sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
first I'd like to indicate what you need to successfully accomplish the PoS attack you pointed to.

a) disable checkpoints and have users download your release.

Checkpoints completely centralise control of the chain, though.

They don't if they are hashes of hard fork blocks, coded into the software thousands blocks after the HF had happened by consensus.

b) procure many PoS accounts keys with very large stakes.

Historical keys have no value, they should be easy to purchase.

There is no proof to this statement.

c) have powerful / quantum hardware to build a myriad of chains to get one with the cumulative difficulty higher than the valid chain to be accepted by other nodes.

Since block production is so cheap in PoS, I don't need any such powerful hardware to do this.

Yes, you do. A well designed PoS has protections against this computing attack to notably slow you down.

Now for the theoretical attack vectors on PoW, these are well known but I can't refuse since you asked.

1) voluntary collusion of miners.

Yes, 51% attack is well known.

2) involuntary - high vulnerability of centralized mining physical infrastructure and known locations to state level attacks.

The chain is highly resilient to such takedowns - anyone with a CPU can mine. In PoS, if you confiscate the stake from the stakers, the chain is totally unrecoverable.

a) anyone with a CPU can mine after how many years of difficulty adjustment and dysfunctional network? b) the protection of Bitcoin is ASIC network. If it's degraded to anyone with a CPU can mine, many state level actors can attack the network that had protection by ASICs removed.

3) dependence on ever increasing hash rate and difficulty, security is weakened if price goes down, dependence on energy infrastructure.

Security is weakened if hash rate goes down, not price.

Hash rate follows price. PoW depends on the price going up. If the price goes down, the hash rate goes down, PoW is at risk.

4) quantum computing.

Does not exist.

You can't be sure.

Look, all I am saying is properly designed PoW and PoS have their advantages and flaws. Dismissing one or the other is ill-advised. Hedging your risks using both is wise.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
first I'd like to indicate what you need to successfully accomplish the PoS attack you pointed to.

a) disable checkpoints and have users download your release.

This is obvious. Checkpoints completely centralise control of the chain, though.

b) procure many PoS accounts keys with very large stakes.

Historical keys have no value, they should be easy to purchase.

c) have powerful / quantum hardware to build a myriad of chains to get one with the cumulative difficulty higher than the valid chain to be accepted by other nodes.

Since block production is so cheap in PoS, I don't need any such powerful hardware to do this.

Now for the theoretical attack vectors on PoW, these are well known but I can't refuse since you asked.

1) voluntary collusion of miners.

Yes, 51% attack is well known.

2) involuntary - high vulnerability of centralized mining physical infrastructure and known locations to state level attacks.

The chain is highly resilient to such takedowns - anyone with a CPU can mine. In PoS, if you confiscate the stake from the stakers, the chain is totally unrecoverable.

3) dependence on ever increasing hash rate and difficulty, security is weakened if price goes down, dependence on energy infrastructure.

Security is weakened if hash rate goes down, not price.

4) quantum computing.

Does not exist.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
In theory pigs can fly. I can name a number of theoretical attack vectors on PoW coins. They don't make me lose sleep owning PoW coins.

Let's hear them, then.

first I'd like to indicate what you need to successfully accomplish the PoS attack you pointed to.

a) disable checkpoints and have users download your release.
b) procure many PoS accounts keys with very large stakes.
c) have powerful / quantum hardware to build a myriad of chains to get one with the cumulative difficulty higher than the valid chain to be accepted by other nodes.

Each of these is not trivial, combined they are the pigs can fly at supersonic speed kind of fantasy.

Now for the theoretical attack vectors on PoW, these are well known but I can't refuse since you asked.

1) voluntary collusion of miners.
2) involuntary - high vulnerability of centralized mining physical infrastructure and known locations to state level attacks.
3) dependence on ever increasing hash rate and difficulty, security is weakened if price goes down, dependence on energy infrastructure.
4) quantum computing.

You can dismiss these attack angles because they haven't yet been used. TPTB_need_war disagrees with you.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
In theory pigs can fly. I can name a number of theoretical attack vectors on PoW coins. They don't make me lose sleep owning PoW coins.

Let's hear them, then.
sr. member
Activity: 686
Merit: 270
FREEDOM RESERVE
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Quote
Thats not really what they're for— though that have the effect too. Most of their usefulness is that they prevent a dos attacker from filling up bitcoin node's disk space with long runs of low difficulty blocks forked off low in the chain.

This is a special case of isolating a node from the main chain and feeding it the blocks of the attacker's chain. How is this not related to security?

It's a DOS angle, nothing more. The key distinction is that bitcoin can continue to function with the same level of security with checkpoints removed. If you remove checkpoints from any PoS coin, it immediately becomes vulnerable to any number of attacks on the chain history, for example the keys from the past attack wherein I can produce invalid candidate histories by using historic private keys which are no long in use.

In theory pigs can fly. I can name a number of theoretical attack vectors on PoW coins. They don't make me lose sleep owning PoW coins.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
Quote
Thats not really what they're for— though that have the effect too. Most of their usefulness is that they prevent a dos attacker from filling up bitcoin node's disk space with long runs of low difficulty blocks forked off low in the chain.

This is a special case of isolating a node from the main chain and feeding it the blocks of the attacker's chain. How is this not related to security?

It's a DOS angle, nothing more. The key distinction is that bitcoin can continue to function with the same level of security with checkpoints removed. If you remove checkpoints from any PoS coin, it immediately becomes vulnerable to any number of attacks on the chain history, for example the keys from the past attack wherein I can produce invalid candidate histories by using historic private keys which are no long in use.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Quote
Thats not really what they're for— though that have the effect too. Most of their usefulness is that they prevent a dos attacker from filling up bitcoin node's disk space with long runs of low difficulty blocks forked off low in the chain.

This is a special case of isolating a node from the main chain and feeding it the blocks of the attacker's chain. How is this not related to security?
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
Avoid anything with any element of PoS; more to the point, anything which relies on checkpoints for security.

Bitcoin relies on checkpoints for security. Source: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/what-are-checkpoints-in-bitcoin-code-194078

No it doesn't. Keep reading that thread.

It does. Is the reason gmaxwell wrote not related to security?

Quote
Thats not really what they're for— though that have the effect too. Most of their usefulness is that they prevent a dos attacker from filling up bitcoin node's disk space with long runs of low difficulty blocks forked off low in the chain.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Avoid anything with any element of PoS; more to the point, anything which relies on checkpoints for security.

Bitcoin relies on checkpoints for security. Source: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/what-are-checkpoints-in-bitcoin-code-194078

No it doesn't. Keep reading that thread.

It does. Is the reason gmaxwell wrote not related to security?

so that an attacker who has complete control of your network (and thus can prevent you from hearing the longest chain from the honest bitcoin network) from putting you on a fake (low difficulty) isolated chain unless they can also trick you into running replaced software. With the checkpoints such an attacker hast to have a ton of mining power in order to continue the chain.

Based on this information, will you change your post to "not all checkpoints are evil"?
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
Avoid anything with any element of PoS; more to the point, anything which relies on checkpoints for security.

Bitcoin relies on checkpoints for security. Source: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/what-are-checkpoints-in-bitcoin-code-194078

No it doesn't. Keep reading that thread.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Avoid anything with any element of PoS; more to the point, anything which relies on checkpoints for security.

Bitcoin relies on checkpoints for security. Source: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/what-are-checkpoints-in-bitcoin-code-194078
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
Is there anyway to know?

Would definitely inform my decision of where I want to put my money long term.

Avoid anything with any element of PoS; more to the point, anything which relies on checkpoints for security.

edit: btw, you're asking part of the wrong question in your thread title - you don't want to look for number of full nodes, you want to look for distribution of power.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1030
Twitter @realmicroguy
Is there anyway to know?

Would definitely inform my decision of where I want to put my money long term.

That is our primary focus, to protect our blockchain from being co-opted or subverted and to remain decentralized.

In a nutshell, we intend to build GoldCoin into the ideal that Satoshi would have wanted. We're like Bitcoin Classic only with better devs and less drama.
legendary
Activity: 1611
Merit: 1001
Is there anyway to know?

Would definitely inform my decision of where I want to put my money long term.
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