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Topic: Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable - page 11. (Read 25752 times)

hero member
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https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/some-thoughts-on-arguments-of-pow-guys/msg31104/#msg31104

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584703.msg7016078#msg7016078
A penalty for an inactive but otherwise non malicious forgers is useful but it doesn't help in a 51% attack.

By definition in a 51% attack the attacker IS NOT mining the main chain so a penalty that doesn't allow him to mine on the chain he already isn't mining isn't much of a penalty is it?  On the other hand in the attack chain it will be the legit miners who failed to mint a block and they will be subject to the penalty.  When the attack chain is longer and the attacker broadcasts it, then it becomes the longest chain and some or all of legit miners will be penalized for up to 1440 blocks.

In Nxt both the chains (legit and hidden) will have the same cumulative difficulties coz forging power of penalized forgers is delegated to the others and total power is bumped back to 100%. But the hidden chain won't have transactions of the economic cluster and this is where extra consensus rule becomes handy.

The attacker has ~10 minutes (may be changed after we collect stats) to reveal his chain. After 10 mins all transactions will be set in stone and 51% attacks won't be possible at all. If the attacker combines 51% attack with eclipse attack then the victim will notice that the recent blocks don't have transactions of the cluster (actually there could be some coz of time difference and corrupt participants of the cluster but the ratio will be much lower than threshold).

Original design assumes that every block there will be 2-3 forgers who have to compete at certain block height. So every block at least 1 forger will be penalized. Number of forks within 10 min window is supposed to be high and users shouldn't rely on low number of confirmations.

Some forgers will attach their blocks to dead branches but they shouldn't reforge blocks after blockchain reorgs coz other forgers may see contradicting blocks (signed by the same account but belonging to different branches) and report them by including both the blocks into their own chains.
donator
Activity: 1218
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Gerald Davis
from https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=1849.msg31104#msg31104

There is only 1 penalty for forgers - they r not allowed to forge for the next 1440 blocks. Main goal is not to punish but rather to "disable" them.

A penalty for an inactive but otherwise non malicious forgers is useful but it doesn't help in a 51% attack.

By definition in a 51% attack the attacker IS NOT mining the main chain so a penalty that doesn't allow him to mine on the chain he already isn't mining isn't much of a penalty is it?  On the other hand in the attack chain it will be the legit miners who failed to mint a block and they will be subject to the penalty.  When the attack chain is longer and the attacker broadcasts it, then it becomes the longest chain and some or all of legit miners will be penalized for up to 1440 blocks.

but does this partially solve the nothing at stake issue?

If attacks that are made on the main chain are recorded, then those miners/forgers can't attack
at any point... seems they would have to attack at a point either before the penalty existed, or after the penalty expired.


I am not even sure what you mean.  Attacks aren't "made" on the main chain.  A 51% attack involves the attacker building AN ALTERNATE chain.

In the main chain = attacker mines no block.  
In the attack chain = attacker mines all block = no penalty

When the attack chain is longer the attacker broadcasts it at which point the "attack chain" becomes the main chain and the "honest" chain just becomes an orphaned minority fork.

At no point is the attacker subject to any penalty.
legendary
Activity: 1302
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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
from https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=1849.msg31104#msg31104

There is only 1 penalty for forgers - they r not allowed to forge for the next 1440 blocks. Main goal is not to punish but rather to "disable" them.

A penalty for an inactive but otherwise non malicious forgers is useful but it doesn't help in a 51% attack.

By definition in a 51% attack the attacker IS NOT mining the main chain so a penalty that doesn't allow him to mine on the chain he already isn't mining isn't much of a penalty is it?  On the other hand in the attack chain it will be the legit miners who failed to mint a block and they will be subject to the penalty.  When the attack chain is longer and the attacker broadcasts it, then it becomes the longest chain and some or all of legit miners will be penalized for up to 1440 blocks.

but does this partially solve the nothing at stake issue?

If attacks that are made on the main chain are recorded, then those miners/forgers can't attack
at any point... seems they would have to attack at a point either before the penalty existed, or after the penalty expired.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
DPOS and NXT are practically identical, the only difference is which mechanism is used to pick block producers (both are essentially by stake-vote)

In NXT you can also form forging pools and may lead to Bitcoin style problems.
The forging pools with nxt equal the delegates in dpos. This is what makes them equal.

Not necessarily. The problem in Bitcoin pools is that they are not limited, and the same problem exists with pooled forging.

With DPoS, there is a limit to how much votes each can collect, and any delegate can not dominate; at least openly.

If GHASH split into 3 pools with the same combined hashing power but owned and operated by the same entity would that make Bitcoin more decentralized?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
DPOS and NXT are practically identical, the only difference is which mechanism is used to pick block producers (both are essentially by stake-vote)

In NXT you can also form forging pools and may lead to Bitcoin style problems.
The forging pools with nxt equal the delegates in dpos. This is what makes them equal.

Not necessarily. The problem in Bitcoin pools is that they are not limited, and the same problem exists with pooled forging.

With DPoS, there is a limit to how much votes each can collect, and any delegate can not dominate; at least openly.

sr. member
Activity: 243
Merit: 250
DPOS for sure
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
from https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=1849.msg31104#msg31104

There is only 1 penalty for forgers - they r not allowed to forge for the next 1440 blocks. Main goal is not to punish but rather to "disable" them.

A penalty for an inactive but otherwise non malicious forgers is useful but it doesn't help in a 51% attack.

By definition in a 51% attack the attacker IS NOT mining the main chain so a penalty that doesn't allow him to mine on the chain he already isn't mining isn't much of a penalty is it?  On the other hand in the attack chain it will be the legit miners who failed to mint a block and they will be subject to the penalty.  When the attack chain is longer and the attacker broadcasts it, then it becomes the longest chain and some or all of legit miners will be penalized for up to 1440 blocks.
legendary
Activity: 1225
Merit: 1000
from https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=1849.msg31104#msg31104

There is only 1 penalty for forgers - they r not allowed to forge for the next 1440 blocks. Main goal is not to punish but rather to "disable" them.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
The penalty suggestion would need to be much further defined if you want a serious discussion about it.
full member
Activity: 144
Merit: 100

I find CfB self -imposed "ban" from BT forum weird, and of course DaT won't join nxtforum

https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/some-thoughts-on-arguments-of-pow-guys/

  -- quote --

From https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6982574

Quote
You haven't eliminated the fact that there is absolutely no reason not to sign all possible chains in event of a fork.
Can a penalty fix this problem? It seems to me it can.

Quote
Bitcoin in it's short history had had ~40M txs. Adding 32 bytes to each transaction would have bloated the blockchain by another 1.2 GB.
So PoW guys were saying that current blockchain size was not an issue but now they want to save 1.2 GiB? It's even funnier that SPV is not mentioned.

Quote
One can perform a reorg with no cost by simply acquiring private keys which at one time had (past tense) a majority of the stake.
I wouldn't use the word "simply", unless someone could show 2 cases when ppl sell their old private keys.

Quote
There is a chance you will out mine/mint/forge the rest of the network.
Sure, odds r the same as to win 1 million dollars in a lottery.

Quote
In NXT when you forge a block which is the best at current height but doesn't enable you to forge the next block (due to incompatible block signature) there is no reason to not use computing power to try and find an alternative which enables you to forge the next one as well.
Could someone show an example? Right now the quoted phrase looks as the beginning of a Sci-Fi novel.

Quote
The chance may be low but with no cost it would be foolish to not attempt it.
No cost? Right, 1 (one) SHA256 operation costs nothing, 1015 * [nothing] is still nothing. Bitcoin network spends no resources, neat.

Quote
With no cost, forks will last longer, and reorgs will be deeper.
Penalty makes it very costly to extend multiple forks.

Quote
So saying "put a hash of a recent block in the tx and nothing at stake is a strawman" misses the larger context.  If there is no cost to attack the network there is no reason to NOT attack the network.
How many times should I repeat that there will be a penalty?

PS: A bonus thought. Nxt consensus rule solves the problem of Bitcoin Fork 2013. Nxt to Bitcoin as Einstein's theory to Newton's theory.

Such arrogance many arguments..

Penalize what? One could move the coins to a new address I suppose... how do you know?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
PoW+PoS+PoT

Fluttercoin

That's the most viable PoS system.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500

I find CfB self -imposed "ban" from BT forum weird, and of course DaT won't join nxtforum

https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/some-thoughts-on-arguments-of-pow-guys/

  -- quote --

From https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6982574

Quote
You haven't eliminated the fact that there is absolutely no reason not to sign all possible chains in event of a fork.
Can a penalty fix this problem? It seems to me it can.

Quote
Bitcoin in it's short history had had ~40M txs. Adding 32 bytes to each transaction would have bloated the blockchain by another 1.2 GB.
So PoW guys were saying that current blockchain size was not an issue but now they want to save 1.2 GiB? It's even funnier that SPV is not mentioned.

Quote
One can perform a reorg with no cost by simply acquiring private keys which at one time had (past tense) a majority of the stake.
I wouldn't use the word "simply", unless someone could show 2 cases when ppl sell their old private keys.

Quote
There is a chance you will out mine/mint/forge the rest of the network.
Sure, odds r the same as to win 1 million dollars in a lottery.

Quote
In NXT when you forge a block which is the best at current height but doesn't enable you to forge the next block (due to incompatible block signature) there is no reason to not use computing power to try and find an alternative which enables you to forge the next one as well.
Could someone show an example? Right now the quoted phrase looks as the beginning of a Sci-Fi novel.

Quote
The chance may be low but with no cost it would be foolish to not attempt it.
No cost? Right, 1 (one) SHA256 operation costs nothing, 1015 * [nothing] is still nothing. Bitcoin network spends no resources, neat.

Quote
With no cost, forks will last longer, and reorgs will be deeper.
Penalty makes it very costly to extend multiple forks.

Quote
So saying "put a hash of a recent block in the tx and nothing at stake is a strawman" misses the larger context.  If there is no cost to attack the network there is no reason to NOT attack the network.
How many times should I repeat that there will be a penalty?

PS: A bonus thought. Nxt consensus rule solves the problem of Bitcoin Fork 2013. Nxt to Bitcoin as Einstein's theory to Newton's theory.
legendary
Activity: 1205
Merit: 1000
Transparant forging is really impressive, never seen something like that in cryptocurrencies.  Shocked
full member
Activity: 237
Merit: 100
Transparent forging? What do you mean? PoW/PoS is not transparent?

Transparent means that the system will know ahead of time (subject to some uncertainty) which agent will be verifying the next block.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1090
=== NODE IS OK! ==
Transparent forging? What do you mean? PoW/PoS is not transparent?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
What is interesting to me is that in the (IMO very unlikely) event that Nxt has technical promise, then as soon as the code is open-source it will be possible to create Nxt-clone using the spin-off mechanism and immediately bootstrap the clone with a more efficient distribution than Nxt-original.  

You bring up a good point about distribution though.  If nxt did create a major breakthrough, it would certainly be nice to capitalize on that with a bitcoin based distribution, rather than speculating on a new altcoin.

Would your bootstrapping protocol work with nxt even though the coins are so different?

I see no reason why the spin-off mechanism shouldn't work with every alt-coin.  We are discussing the protocol details in the spin-off thread if you are interested.  Adrian-X has posted a 1 BTC bounty for source code that builds the snapshot.bin files that become Block 0 in the spin-off.  

I think in time we will see the idea of launching "new alt-coin currencies" as economically flawed: money is more about the legitimacy of the ledger than the properties of the payment system.  Important open-source payment system innovations will be integrated into bitcoin anyways, and closed-source innovations will not be trusted.  I believe people genuinely interested in innovation will be better served building new protocol layers that work on top of bitcoin, launching experimental spin-offs, or working towards side-chains or tree-chains.  But, alas, the promise of dumping a huge premine on a frenzied market seems too big a carrot.  

Interesting.  As you say, "we will see" since people can vote with their wallets.
The good thing about your idea is that is still allows for several competing
currencies even though distribution is based on bitcoin.

I wouldnt want there to be just one blockchain to rule them all.
But the distribution benefits bitcoin holders at the same time.

 
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
What is interesting to me is that in the (IMO very unlikely) event that Nxt has technical promise, then as soon as the code is open-source it will be possible to create Nxt-clone using the spin-off mechanism and immediately bootstrap the clone with a more efficient distribution than Nxt-original.  

You bring up a good point about distribution though.  If nxt did create a major breakthrough, it would certainly be nice to capitalize on that with a bitcoin based distribution, rather than speculating on a new altcoin.

Would your bootstrapping protocol work with nxt even though the coins are so different?

I see no reason why the spin-off mechanism shouldn't work with every alt-coin.  We are discussing the protocol details in the spin-off thread if you are interested.  Adrian-X has posted a 1 BTC bounty for source code that builds the snapshot.bin files that become Block 0 in the spin-off.  

I think in time we will see the idea of launching "new alt-coin currencies" as economically flawed: money is more about the legitimacy of the ledger than the properties of the payment system.  Important open-source payment system innovations will be integrated into bitcoin anyways, and closed-source innovations will not be trusted.  I believe people genuinely interested in innovation will be better served building new protocol layers that work on top of bitcoin, launching experimental spin-offs, or working towards side-chains or tree-chains.  But, alas, the promise of dumping a huge premine on a frenzied market seems too big a carrot.  
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
im sure DT will give you a more complete answer,
but I think no, it affects any PoS system because
nothing is happening in real time.  Everything can
be done retroactively.  The thing about PoW is
that is simulates a timestamp server because
work actually takes time to do.


Quote
It prevents the tx from being included in a chain which diverges below the blockhash referenced in the tx.

wouldnt this be prevented anyway be some other check in the protocol?
sr. member
Activity: 1582
Merit: 253
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
correct me if i'm wrong, but saying "put a hash of a recent block in the tx"
does nothing more than duplicate the mechanism already in place in
any blockchain, which is to cryptographically link one block to the next.

It prevents the tx from being included in a chain which diverges below the blockhash referenced in the tx.   It does have some use but to say alone it "solves" all aspects of "nothing at stake" is sadly not correct.
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