Who is still delusional enough to think miners want to scale?

cellard

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Quote from: Qartada on June 01, 2017, 10:50:02 AM

Quote from: cellard on June 01, 2017, 10:42:39 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Yeah miners benefit more from smaller blocks, so which would you prefer if you were a miner?

If I was a miner, I would think long term and realize that I would end up raking bigger fees once bitcoin goes mainstream thanks to lightning network allowing for trillions of transactions daily

LN would not result in significantly higher fees being given to miners. Due to the lack of demand for onchain transactions there would be, paired with the fact that the value of the block reward would be very high by that point, I can't see it as them "thinking long term".

Their thoughts are like, "I will support this preferred scaling solution because it might result in the price going up and me getting temporarily higher profits", or "I will support this preferred scaling solution because it might help Bitcoin to retain its market dominance".

At this point, it's more like desperation to just clamour to finally do something, rather than thinking about the fees much. Fees are useless if they don't actually end up receiving them.

As lightning networks transactions go up, potentially reaching global adoption with trillions of transactions daily, all those transactions will ultimately go into the blockchain and get processed by miners, so the overall miner revenue will be higher than just some rich people trading onchain.

Quote from: Hydrogen on June 01, 2017, 06:25:57 PM

Those wanting to scale crypto remind me of people who expect to have great internet multiplayer gaming using a WIFI router.

Encryption & cryptographic functions always slow things down.

Whether its a WIFI router or bitcoin, it could be guaranteed that it will always be somewhat slow.

Not if miners enable segwit to get 100% functional lightning network.

farharhadi

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May have to be fair in covering up an olfactory of their operational costs

Omega Weapon

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Quote from: cellard on June 01, 2017, 10:37:46 AM

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

I’m not defending the miners, but if you have so much money invested in bitcoin and the hardware to mine, then it makes sense they are trying to get the most earnings out of it, I think eventually the miners will agree to segwit if they believe it that scaling the network will bring them a greater economic reward than to keep the network small, but for that we will need adoption in a major scale.

fathur.aza

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I do not just want to scale in a mine I am with just a small block.
With small or empty blocks a huge advantage for you, you want a high cost for the block you are working on

lister storm

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Quote from: Hydrogen on June 01, 2017, 06:25:57 PM

Those wanting to scale crypto remind me of people who expect to have great internet multiplayer gaming using a WIFI router.

Encryption & cryptographic functions always slow things down.

Whether its a WIFI router or bitcoin, it could be guaranteed that it will always be somewhat slow.

of course it will get slowed down. Everywhere where money is involved there are many disputes and this block size dispute might actually be destroying for bitcoin unfortunately. It is sad to see that the desire for money is stopping such a wonderful technology from evolving. thus we have to do the uasf as the miners will not agree on something that will cut their profits.

Chin Cheng

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I am not sure miners will have any sentiment on what the future of bitcoin would be,they just found a cash cow and want to make the maximum profit out of it and they would do anything to keep that flow of money ,the only issue is that they are killing the technology and hope we had without upgrading the network to accommodate more users and transaction and still no one has a clue on what the best solution would be.

Yakamoto

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It's pretty fucking obvious at this point that miners are going to prefer to milk users for transaction fees, it's not like this should be surprising to anyone. Hell, they're probably conducting their own spam attacks to drive up the average fee and make more money off of it. It's not like any of this is supposed to be something that we aren't even remotely aware about.

Anyone have more details on that one segwit agreement that was supposed to be launched in September? Is that actually going to be a thing or are we gonna get blueballed?

25hashcoin

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Quote from: Rabber on June 01, 2017, 06:38:34 PM

So what can we do about it? How can people who want to improve the network support miners that will support faster transactions and lower fees? Is there a way to invest in mines that will do this? How much would it take to outvote the miners holding bitcoin back?

The miners aren't holding bitcoin back. They never were. The plan is Segwit2x right now. The miners are the ones who have shown willingness to compromise.

Rabber

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So what can we do about it? How can people who want to improve the network support miners that will support faster transactions and lower fees? Is there a way to invest in mines that will do this? How much would it take to outvote the miners holding bitcoin back?

Hydrogen

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Those wanting to scale crypto remind me of people who expect to have great internet multiplayer gaming using a WIFI router.

Encryption & cryptographic functions always slow things down.

Whether its a WIFI router or bitcoin, it could be guaranteed that it will always be somewhat slow.

Angel777

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Bitcoin has many opportunities can give.It gives me work,excercise my kwoledge in inglish in english and develop our character to be rich.To change our life.

swogerino

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Bitcoin Casino Est. 2013

Miners make more profit from small blocks resulting in higher fees but I think miners should be ready for any good change to bitcoin otherwise I can't call them miners. Most big miners are in China and this is not a good thing, all they care there is their fat profit without caring too much about the end users and bitcoin itself.

mindrust

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 01, 2017, 12:48:40 PM

Quote from: cellard on June 01, 2017, 10:37:46 AM

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

If I were a miner, I would support whatever improves Bitcoin's network in general, because this would increase the price of Bitcoin and even if I would have smaller fee rewards, the USD profits would increase. On the contrary, if Bitcoin's network will be left at current state with giant fees and slow speed, it's only a matter of time when the price will crash and some other altcoin will take its place (if it will scale better). So, miners should stop shooting themselves in the knee for a short term profit.

I wish everyone were that way. Bitmain miners don't care about bitcoin at all. All they care about is the fat fees they milk from us. They don't even care if bitcoin survives or dies i'm afraid. They'll just point their miners to the next big thing after bitcoin. They will spread like a cancer till there is no crypto left.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: cellard on June 01, 2017, 10:37:46 AM

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

If I were a miner, I would support whatever improves Bitcoin's network in general, because this would increase the price of Bitcoin and even if I would have smaller fee rewards, the USD profits would increase. On the contrary, if Bitcoin's network will be left at current state with giant fees and slow speed, it's only a matter of time when the price will crash and some other altcoin will take its place (if it will scale better). So, miners should stop shooting themselves in the knee for a short term profit.

franky1

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Quote from: michkima on June 01, 2017, 11:15:31 AM

You have a point, but I don't think fees are the primary purpose right now as block rewards are still much better than the fees and the fees usually just goes to the pools. Though probably if they keep this up, when we have had enough halvings then the rewards will be lower then the fees then they will surely forget about scaling.

it doesnt matter when the flip of when fee becomes income and reward becomes a bonus happens.. if their block is not accepted by the community to build ontop of the longest chain they cant spend a thing they earn reward or fee.

its still a matter of pools sticking to the community consensus to ensure thier blocks get accepted into the longest chain so they can spend anything.
whether its
income:bonus
reward : fee - now
fee : reward - many decades time

with that said pools DO want to scale to allow more transactions in, because getting 10cents each from 200,000 tx is a healthier currency that has longevity and utility... compared to hoping for $10 each from 2000 tx, which is not a currency that has longevity

but its all about the competition/race to get an acceptable block which muddies the non-mining nodes opinion of what pools do or do not want.
because the non-mining users dont understand the number of game theories at play.

mindrust

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Quote from: cellard on June 01, 2017, 10:37:46 AM

If you still believe that miners want to willingly lower their fees in order to scale the network you are out of your mind.

They know there will always be problems. The only way out is to force them via UASF. This may trigger an activation by the current BIP, simply activate it by signaling for segwit.

If not, UASF will be it. Take it or leave it, no other way out.

Jihan already declared his position about the fees. He don't want low fees.

Jihan Wu: SegWit Fees are too Damn Low!
https://twitter.com/JihanWu/status/868896110760181760

Neither Roger Ver, nor Jihan want low fees. They are coming with BU as a solution but it is nothing close to be one. That Bitcoin Unlimited crap was a distraction since the day it was born. BU is too absurd to become real (it is a troll proposal) and if somehow they convince the majority into BU, Jihan BU and Roger Ver will name themselves as the founder/CEO of bitcoin Corp. Ver already sees himself as an angel btw. What a freak lol.

We need to either convince Jihan into segwit (not possible at this moment) or get rid of him.

This may cause a huge loss in bitcoin's price but sooner or later we'll come to that critical moment: "Either kill or get killed."

We'll have to get rid of Jihan (with UASF) and if UASF don't succeed, sadly (not for me) we'll have to get rid of all ASICs. There simply isn't any other solution to the current situation.

25hashcoin

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You're delusional to believe Core wants to scale. If we don't have consensus soon miners will fork us into big blocks finally. You little Core fanboys and Uasf cheerleaders can enjoy your 1mb forever Blockscheme banker segshit settlement shit token.

maku

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Majority of miners are greedy bastards, it would be better if they give up mining if they rather keep scaling in forever locked state.
Bitcoin is not some kind of temporary altocin , you can just cut out BTC it and switch over to another short lived pump and dump altcoin.
Miners are not idiots though, they know that current congestion of the network is nothing to trifle with, soon mempool would be totally overload.
If that will happen - mass panic will ensue. Price of BTC will crash->mining profits will be lowered.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

OP, partially agree: Some miners think short term and that's why they aren't signaling for a scaling solution.

Long term, scaling is the only way or else bitcoin becomes uncompetitive.

Emoclaw

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Quote from: cellard on June 01, 2017, 10:42:39 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Yeah miners benefit more from smaller blocks, so which would you prefer if you were a miner?

If I was a miner, I would think long term and realize that I would end up raking bigger fees once bitcoin goes mainstream thanks to lightning network allowing for trillions of transactions daily, but miners (specially chinese) just want short term gains, so we are stuck with what we have as long as people are too much of a pussy to UASF and FORCE the miners to follow us, not the other way around.

Miners won't benefit AT ALL if the lightning network is activated, neither short nor long term.
If the majority of transactions (and especially small ones) go through the lightning network, a substantially smaller amount of transactions will be broadcast to the blockchain.
Which means miners will get significantly less fees.

Topic: Who is still delusional enough to think miners want to scale? (Read 1117 times)