Topic: Who needs Satoshi Nakamoto principles? - page 3. (Read 1109 times)

Im also studying different system for this, originally i come from distributed system, and blockchain is a very Nice way to solve the byzantine problem while keeping the system decentralized and without relying on trusted party.

For me the area where blockchain are supposed to be king is for digital economy, everything that can hold value and being digitalized can be put into a blockchain environment.

With this idea there can be many way to earn outside of mining. And coin price would be adjusted to the price that services provider require for their service.

Someone sent me a pdf also where it shows how this economy could work with token emission based on value of services/goods available throught the blockchain. Its the only economic model that really make sense to me. And it fit better into a classic share scheme, as share value grow with the network.

For energy grid or such the model can become relatively simple without requiring mining to emit token.

But it needs an economy outside of only trading coin exchange market.

The mining is then only to force chain progress and select branches.

"Well fed is not a friend to one who is hungry."
Russian folk proverb.

I understood your idea. Your idea would be good if it would solve another problem: how to carry out the issue of coins? That is, if we do not issue coins as a reward for block mining, then how to issue them in the economic circulation environment? Who and by what rules will these coins receive? Have you thought about this?
At the moment, Bitcoin is a comprehensive solution that takes into account both technical implementation and economic tasks. In the case of “intangible rewards,” economic challenges are lost. Therefore, your solution is not comprehensive.

If mining is truely centralized the way you described it, the best option would be to decentralize or ban mining completely, otherwise the central forces will move to other things to centralize.

I'd prefer a situation where mining is suspended for the time being and maybe replaced with better alternatives. One of my favorite alternatives is rewarding the new miners with non-financial incentives like points/merits, ranking up in decentralized communities, more privileges etc. The rewards like points should only be used within the bitcoin communities.

Pools are centralized, but one can switch pools easily.

No one has a "right" to participate.  If you have something of value to offer, then it is a permission-less entry, if you have nothing of value to offer, no one should be forced to let you participate at their cost.  If you want to mine, earn money and buy miners.

I would like everyone who says so to try to do this in practice, living in countries where the salary is $ 100 per month with a 12-hour working day ...

Bitcoin was amazing years ago as everything until it gets abused, once it gets abused, it losts it's magic. In past bitcoin had very low fees, you could use exchanges and etc without KYC documents, mining was profitable at home, in overall everything was amazing, even anonymity (now they know more).
In overall money was always releasing money.

Buying 1-2 asic miner isn't that expensive but here he talks about mining farms, the ones which Bitmain and Bitfury has. Well, they deserve this at some point cause they invest in more researches to build better miners and in overall they create this miners. But I can't agree with you when you say that they believe in bitcoin, no man, they don't care about it, the only motive here is money that they can get with this business. There aren't bitcoin supporters.

You wanted to say that it contradicts the capitalist economy, in which all interests are concentrated on the needs of the rich? Yes!
You wanted to say that it violates the incentives of Bitcoin? No!
You do not understand the reasons why Bitcoin was created. This is the philosophy of crypto-anarchists, not bankers and merchants.

This is a simplified representation of the difference between a regular pool and a pool that will work with my algorithm.
Ok, I understand that everyone wants a more detailed explanation. Let me finish the code, publish it, and then explain in more detail what is happening. OK?

OK. Let's count.
At the moment, the Bitcoin network has a capacity of 100 EH/s. This number is 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 H/s. Antminer T9 has 11.5 TH/s = 11 500 000 000 000 H/s.
100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 / 11,500,000,000,000 = 8,695,652 miners.
Each T9 miner consumes 1690 watts.
8 695 652 * 1690 = 14 695 652 173 W/h.
Now multiply by hours and days.
14 695 652 173 * 24 * 365 = 128 733 913 043 478 W/h/year.
But this is not an exact figure, because miners are different. The network still has a lot of old miners that consume much more electricity than the T9 or S9.

Now add to this number the mining of other cryptocurrencies. The farms on the graphics cards are so hot that some people use them as heating in the winter. Even if we just assume that this is the same consumption as the Bitcoin network, then we get that the total energy consumption that is used for mining = 128 733 913 043 478 W/h/year.

World output as of 2016 = 24,816,000,000,000,000 W/h/year. Transmission loss is about 20%. Thus, total consumption cannot be more than 20,000,000,000,000,000 W/h/year.
To division ...
20,000,000,000,000,000 / 128,733,913,043,478 = 155 parts.
100% / 155 = 0.65%

That is, now at least 0.65% of all the electricity that is consumed in the world goes only to mining. And this number is constantly growing. After 2 years, it will grow to 5%. After 10 years, up to 30%.

Now, if we completely turn off all the miners, and all the network maintenance work will be assigned to computers that are constantly working (because we already use them for other tasks), then all these energy costs can simply disappear.

No, you just do not understand it correctly. Ok, when I have time, I will redraw this diagram more clearly + add numbers. Maybe then you will understand.

That's a nice idea, but it clashes with basic economics and the incentives underlying Bitcoin. The fundamental premise of proof-of-work mining is that miners engage in a costly and time-consuming process which can be easily verified. The whole point is that it's expensive for miners to produce POW but nearly free for users to verify.

Take that model to its natural conclusion. Increased competition leads to lower margins and higher costs, as difficulty rises. This forces smaller, "poorer" miners who cannot scale up their operations out of the market.


It's not up to us. It's a market mechanism. Miners are driving the hash rate up because buyers are bidding up the price of bitcoins. If demand for bitcoins keeps rising, so too will mining expenditures.

From what i understand the chain is constructed in sort that there can be only one long sequence of operation for a given block height, so its not based on scanning a rangé of value with a statistical chance each round, but a deterministic set of rounds to solve the problem, and no partition can be computed in parrallel as each round dépend on the precedent one, it cant be made faster by breaking the work on different miners who can work in //.

I think the picture is wrong actually its not even based on hash.

I think i understand a bit now, i answered also in the other thread.

You are absolutely right, I have already talked about this. Pools needed. Moreover, an ideal network should work as one large pool, otherwise each miner will be able to receive a reward no more than once every few years. But this technology will not allow to gain an advantage in computing using the pool.

You obviously don’t understand what it means to be poor. You think that the poor one is the one who drives an old car and receives $ 2000 per month, from which he can allocate $ 500 to buy an old unprofitable miner ... But this is your misunderstanding.
A poor person is one who thinks every day what to buy food for. But you will not understand. I propose to stop discussing this issue. You are too far from the real situation in the world.

It’s hard for me to understand what you cannot understand in the word “centralization”. All mining is in the hands of a small group of very wealthy farmers. Farmers are controlled by the government of the country in which their mining farms are located. The governments of different countries are controlled by the international government. This is centralization.
So that mining is not called centralized, it must be decentralized. Decentralized mining is when anyone can participate in mining using their own computer or smartphone. This cannot be controlled. The government here is powerless.

If you do not agree with this, I can do nothing about it. A rich man who does nothing useful but sits on a big mountain of gold can also call himself a “hard worker”. But the truth is that the real workers are those who mined this gold from the mine. And one lazy person cannot get a whole bunch of gold. Therefore, when one farmer owns a mining farm of 1000 THash, and millions of people around the world cannot even get 1 satoshi, then this is not fair. And Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin to overcome this problem. But this problem overcame both Bitcoin and Satoshi.
Therefore, it doesn’t matter to me whether you agree with me or not that Bitcoin is centralized. It is centralized. It is a fact. But you can not admit it, you have the right to it.

Myself introduce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN5lilgqm9E&feature=youtu.be

First and foremost, I don't really think I agree with you on the argument that mining is centralized. Do you really understand how the entire system of mining works ? please you need to eleborate the basic reasons why you thing is centralized in the first place. Because I think a lot of people on this forum wanna know what exactly you have seen to finally conclude on this.

Ok This is the source code of my miner core. You can make sure.
I’ll take off the video now, post it on YouTube and give a link ...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lN33I01WPafyQy8mJ3Pa1sC6jauDPmqM/view?usp=sharing

My story.

My name is Vitaliy Viktorovich Monastyrskiy. I was born in the USSR in 1977. My father was a World War II veteran. In this war, he was seriously injured and became disabled. Therefore, he had a lot of time and opportunity to engage in my development and education. When I was 1.5 years old, he taught me to read and count. At 3 years old, I already knew how to compose poetry. At 4, I learned to solve various mathematical and logical problems. Since then, I have loved the exact sciences.
In 1984, I entered the Lyceum of Information Technology. At the Lyceum we studied computer science, algorithmic language, DOS operating system, programming languages Basic and Pascal. I took part in olympiads in physics, mathematics and programming, I won chess tournaments. In 1990, I was the representative of my republic at the international conference of pioneer children, which was held in Artek. Then I thought that my life was determined and the future was known. I planned to engage in theoretical nuclear physics and become a famous scientist ...
But life turned out differently.
In 1991, when I was still studying at the Lyceum, the USSR was destroyed. In my country, poverty and hunger have come. All education became paid and was very expensive. Only the children of wealthy parents could enter good institutions and universities. Therefore, when I finished studying at the Lyceum in 1994, I had no other way and I went to work in a quarry like ordinary stonecutter. After 1 year, they took me to serve in the army. In our country, it is forced.
After the army, I again had to work in the quarries in order to survive. But I wanted to change my life and the lives of other people. Therefore, I began to develop a new ideology that would help people change their lives, global world order and save humanity from self-destruction. In the day I went to work in a quarry for a piece of bread, and in the evening I went to the library, took interesting books, studied and thought - how to change the world for the better.
In those years, my country was in a very difficult economic situation. But it allowed to earn a lot of money if you engage in banditry, steal and deceive people. I could not afford it. So I was looking for a way - how to make money honestly. Already at that time I had several inventions and I decided to take part in the competition of inventors, which was in my country in 2004. It was called "Have an Idea." I was able to win the first round of this competition and hoped that the sponsors of the competition would notice me and want to finance my inventions ...
But at the end of 2004, a revolution was made in my country. And all my plans collapsed.
Then I decided that I should finance my inventions myself. It needed a lot of money. Therefore, I began to work more to open my own business. And I began to succeed. I was able to make money and buy my own tool. Thanks to this, I was able to open my small business. I began to work for myself. At that time, I already had a car that I bought on credit, and I began to assemble my first CNC machine. I planned to start their production and sale. I thought I could work a little more and I could secure my inventions. The business developed and I even took one assistant to me ...
But in 2008, the global financial crisis began and I became bankrupt.
For many years I repaid debts to banks. There was little work and it was difficult to earn. But in 2012, things began to improve. At that time, the first 3D printers began to appear. I understood that this was a breakthrough in technology. All 3D printers were amateur at the time. Large companies also made 3D printers, but they were very expensive. I knew that anyone who could develop a cheap but very high-quality industrial-grade printer would become a millionaire. And I was able to develop such a printer, which in its characteristics could be the best at that time. I collected the last money, borrowed a part from my friends and bought components for its assembly. It seemed to me that this time I would definitely succeed, because my StartUp at that time was on the crest of a wave ...
But in 2013, a new revolution began in my country. And this time she came not alone. She took war with her.
I actively protested against the war and therefore I was sent to prison. For 2 years I was a political prisoner. During this time I sold everything that I had - business, property, housing, and special services confiscated my computer equipment.
When I was released in 2016, I had nothing - just clothes ... It's good that I had good friends who helped and settled down me to live with one of my friends.
The war continued and created an ever stronger economic crisis in the country. And I was already old, my health was undermined by hard work in the quarries and the term in prison, so I could no longer work in the quarries. I needed to come up with a way - how to quickly earn a lot of money in order to immediately solve many problems. And it was at this time that ICOs became popular ...

It was a good chance to get start-up capital in order to develop your own business. Then I decided to submit one of my developments, which could interest the crypto community on the ICO.
At first it was a stable-coin project that contained unique algorithms to solve the problems of a large blockchain, which occupied hundreds of gigabytes. I called it VenusGEET. I again asked my friends for help and they raised a small amount of money so that I could start developing this project. But when I finished making the site, the project’s symbolism and the project’s token, it was already the end of 2017, Bitcoin collapsed and at the same time funding for ICO projects stopped.
You need to understand that the project of this stable coin was not commercial and could not bring direct profit to anyone. He had a all-people orientation. Therefore, we could not collect a single cent.

Then I thought that maybe investors will become more generous if they are offered a project that will allow them to earn a lot of money in a short time. And then I submitted one of my inventions to the ICO. It was the development of the fastest Bitcoin miner in the world - the VenusMINE project. In it, I applied ideas from my processor, which I proposed back in 2004 to the competition of inventors. A technical calculation showed that these miners can be 3 times faster than Bitmain or Canaan miners.
But it was a revolutionary architecture and no one was able to understand its advantages. Therefore, all that we were able to collect was $ 5000, of which about 3000 were given by our friends and relatives, and another $ 2000 by business angels. This money allowed me to finish developing the kernel architecture and port it to Verilog code. But then things stopped, because further the project required large investments - $ 200,000, which are needed to order test chips at the factory in Taiwan. Nobody wanted to invest so much money in this project. All investors chose to donate their money to a financial pyramid called BitConnect and other fraudulent projects like Envion.
I don’t know why, but investors consider my project “scum”, although it shows an innovative idea and development. At the same time, frank fraudulent schemes that are clearly visible, which have no innovations, no inventions, no development, but only expensive advertising and empty promises, are considered by investors to be “cool projects”.
I don’t know why this is happening ... Apparently rich people who easily earned their money want to lose it just as easily.

OK.
Summarize.
My miner project was frozen due to lack of funding. My friend, who helped me do it, was forced to leave for another country to earn money. In my country, war is still going on and the economic situation is getting worse. Millions of people leave their homeland and flee to other countries in order to survive.
And now I have a choice:
or I will find financing for one of my projects,
or I will have to leave for labor emigration to a foreign country in order to survive ...

And I decided to use the last chance ...
So, I have 3 good projects.

1) This is VenusMINE - the fastest miner in the world. This project requires $ 200,000 investment. I know that no one wants to invest it, but anyway, I have to mention it, because it already exists.

2) This is a POW algorithm that can solve the problem of mining centralization. This project is not commercial; it cannot bring profit to investors. But this project can bring good to many poor people around the world.

3) FPNA - a programmable neural processor that allows you to test any architecture of neural networks. This is the technology of the future. Now, not a single large company in the world (Intel, AMD, IBM, Samsung, Google, Tesla, etc.) has been able to come to this idea. Now they make only tensor accelerators of neural networks. But this is a weak idea. There is no future for them.
I'm talking about technology that the world already needs, but which does not yet exist. Smart cars and planes need it in order to create a better autopilot. It is needed by human-like robots so that they can replace people in hard work. Ordinary gamers need it to make artificial intelligence in games look like a real person ...
And I know how to do it. I have already begun work on a behavioral model.

So, what do I need to continue working on these projects. For this, a little funding of about $ 500 per month is enough for me. If the crypto community can provide me this money, then I can continue to work on these projects.

Now you have 3 options:
1) If you hate me personally, you can just put the label "scumer" on me and forget about it.

2) If you are ready to help and do not want anything in return, you can transfer a small amount to one of my wallets. I will be very grateful for your support.

3) But if you want to take part in the creation of future technologies, you can fix your investments with the help of tokens of our project.
I propose the following scheme. Every month I will put out 500 tokens at $ 1 per token for sale. Thus, I can receive investments, but at the same time, each investor will have confirmation of their investments.
You ask - what is the use of this?
OK. I will tell. In exchange for these tokens, you can become the first recipients of the technologies that I will develop. For example, when I finish work on the bitstream for FPGA chips, you can be the first to get it and by buying an FPGA card you can start experimenting with neural networks. This is very interesting, I assure you.
Then, when we make real chips, you can get the very first PCI cards for your computers for our tokens. It will be similar to how some people bought the first computers in the 70s. Only this time you will buy the first brains for artificial intelligence.

I think such a scheme is very good. You do not need to invest a lot of money. While development is under way, a fairly small salary is for me. Token will be stable = $ 1. Every month you can see the results of the month. This will allow you to make sure that I am honest. All your deposits will be stored with you in the form of tokens, so no one will forget about your investments. You will be the first to know about the success of our startup. And you will be the first to get the right to test products, prototypes and real samples.

OK.

Now you need proof that I am a real person. To do this, I’ll shoot a short video where I will show all my documents and give confirmation that this is my project. OK?

You also need evidence that I can really do what I say. To do this, I will post here my kernel source files for VenusMINE. You will see that I did not spend the money of investors in vain. I did a great job - there are 25130 lines of code. And it works!
I will also post my algorithm code for POW. However, for this I need a little time, since my code is now in a messy form. You must understand - this is working code. I will collect it together, give comments and post it as soon as it is ready. OK?

I think my offer is honest and open. As soon as I post the POW code, you will have everything you need to decide whether you will finance my development or not.

I think in this sense i understand, stratum just offer a bigger range to distribute over many miners, but with your algorithm its not possible to partition the work between different miners like a pool does. Not sure how much it affects the chance of finding a block for small miners but ok.

Pools can be a good thing too no ? They also allow small miners to earn more regulary no ?