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Topic: Why bears are bears? (Read 1853 times)

copper member
Activity: 1428
Merit: 253
May 16, 2013, 09:58:29 AM
#30
We disagree in the terminology. I use it in a logical smart way, you use it in an absolute way.

Yes, I use words in an absolute way.  As in how they are actually defined.


Now, based on the definition of a bear, the only possible option is to short sale. since waiting for a drop, is technically a bull position as they are waiting for the stock to go up. Are we ok on that definition?

Nope.

 Again, If you believe the market is going down, you are a bear. Period. That's it. It has nothing to do with what you are waiting for. Just what you believe will happen.

What is so hard to understand about that?


Just a little more reading for you:
Quote
Another strategy is to wait on the sidelines until you feel that the bear market is nearing its end, only starting to buy in anticipation of a bull market. If a person is pessimistic, believing that stocks are going to drop, he or she is called a "bear" and said to have a "bearish outlook".
http://www.investopedia.com/university/stocks/stocks7.asp

But hey, whatever man...if you want to keep using words wrong, thats up to you. I'm done.

We disagree. And that's ok, that's beyond the point of this topic and it was a good argument.
copper member
Activity: 1428
Merit: 253
May 15, 2013, 10:35:30 PM
#27
Then nobody is a permabull and a permabear, that's impossible.

Exactly.

Thats why the terms are stupid and shouldnt be used. No one can be a permanent bear or permanent bull (unless they are functionally retarded), which is why you dont see the terms used anywhere in investment speak (outside of this forum).




... philosophy is of a bull.

...the bears can be called bulls if they want the price of bitcoin to go down since they are waiting to buy at lower prices but believing that the price will eventually rise again!

No. No. No.

"Bull" and "bear" have nothing to do with "want" or "philosophy".  It is simply a reflection on where you currently believe the market is headed....and yes people go back and forth between bear and bull all the time.



Definition of 'Bear'
An investor who believes that a particular security or market is headed downward. Bears attempt to profit from a decline in prices. Bears are generally pessimistic about the state of a given market.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bear.asp



Definition of 'Bull'
An investor who thinks the market, a specific security or an industry will rise. Investors who takes a bull approach will purchase securities under the assumption that they can be sold later at a higher price.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bull.asp

We disagree in the terminology. I use it in a logical smart way, you use it in an absolute way. I know the definitions of bull and bear. Again, a bear is someone that profits on the decline, how? by either short selling, or by waiting for drops to buy cheap.
Now, based on the definition of a bear, the only possible option is to short sale. since waiting for a drop, is technically a bull position as they are waiting for the stock to go up. Are we ok on that definition?
Now, I dare you to short sale bitcoin! I double dare any bears here! I don't think many will have the balls to short sale a stock that can easily shoot to the roof in a matter of minutes.
Regardless of that, there are permabears that are always trying to bring bitcoin down to buy at cheaper prices and for the most part, they are notorious in this forums.
Now selling because I believe it will drop a few dollars is considered a bearish position? well in the very short term, yes, but I'm a perm bull because I believe in the technology so selling to make a few dollars on the "bad" news does not make me a bear nor distort my bullish position.
I believe we might be talking about the same, but with different views of the concepts.
My position stands and I believe even the permabears are bullish and that's why I voted that most bears are people that wished they have entered the marked earlier.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
May 16, 2013, 03:13:36 AM
#23
 " Because they believe pragmatically that the price will go down. " should be "because the price will inevitably go down" but this is the correct answer.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 16, 2013, 12:50:49 AM
#22
We disagree in the terminology. I use it in a logical smart way, you use it in an absolute way.

Yes, I use words in an absolute way.  As in how they are actually defined.


Now, based on the definition of a bear, the only possible option is to short sale. since waiting for a drop, is technically a bull position as they are waiting for the stock to go up. Are we ok on that definition?

Nope.

 Again, If you believe the market is going down, you are a bear. Period. That's it. It has nothing to do with what you are waiting for. Just what you believe will happen.

What is so hard to understand about that?


Just a little more reading for you:
Quote
Another strategy is to wait on the sidelines until you feel that the bear market is nearing its end, only starting to buy in anticipation of a bull market. If a person is pessimistic, believing that stocks are going to drop, he or she is called a "bear" and said to have a "bearish outlook".
http://www.investopedia.com/university/stocks/stocks7.asp



But hey, whatever man...if you want to keep using words wrong, thats up to you. I'm done.

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
May 15, 2013, 08:27:33 PM
#21
i believe the market will neither go up or down.  what kind of animal am i?  Grin

Turtle
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1008
May 15, 2013, 08:24:59 PM
#20
i believe the market will neither go up or down.  what kind of animal am i?  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
May 15, 2013, 07:54:02 PM
#19
I have been labeled a "permabear" by people on this forum more than once, and its not even remotely true. I suspect that most (if not all) of the others being labelled that aren't either.



your assumption is unsustainable and hard to prove. Also, I'm a perma bull. I've never been bearish on bitcoin because I trust the system, I like the idea, and I am confident that the adoption will gain momentum as more and more people are exposed to bitcoin and the layers of complexity are getting masked by smart developers. So if there are perma bulls, it's very easy to assume there are perma bears that want the opposite for x or y reason. Just by newton's third law! Smiley

You can't use Newton's Third Law like that.  That's like saying because I decide not to send btc to you we can assume there is someone who will decide to send btc to you.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
May 15, 2013, 05:06:32 PM
#18
Longterm bear and longterm bull is maybe more fitting for what he is saying.

I also think that almost everybody here is longterm bull even if they are posting a lot of negative stuff.

As an example I think that Bitcoin could be $1,000/BTC in 10 years time, but if it reaches $500 next week I will be calling it a bubble. Does that make me a bear? I don't think so.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 15, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
#17
Then nobody is a permabull and a permabear, that's impossible.

Exactly.

Thats why the terms are stupid and shouldnt be used. No one can be a permanent bear or permanent bull (unless they are functionally retarded), which is why you dont see the terms used anywhere in investment speak (outside of this forum).




... philosophy is of a bull.

...the bears can be called bulls if they want the price of bitcoin to go down since they are waiting to buy at lower prices but believing that the price will eventually rise again!

No. No. No.

"Bull" and "bear" have nothing to do with "want" or "philosophy".  It is simply a reflection on where you currently believe the market is headed....and yes people go back and forth between bear and bull all the time.



Definition of 'Bear'
An investor who believes that a particular security or market is headed downward. Bears attempt to profit from a decline in prices. Bears are generally pessimistic about the state of a given market.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bear.asp



Definition of 'Bull'
An investor who thinks the market, a specific security or an industry will rise. Investors who takes a bull approach will purchase securities under the assumption that they can be sold later at a higher price.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bull.asp
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 15, 2013, 04:15:18 PM
#16
Also, I'm a perma bull. I've never been bearish on bitcoin because I trust the system,

You have never once thought the price was going to drop? Not even by a cent? Not even for a second?

I dont believe that at all.

Bull and bear just refer to whether you believe the price is going to go down or up, not some overall market philosophy. If you have ever though the price may drop, even by a little, you are not a "permabull".

sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
May 15, 2013, 04:00:53 PM
#15
Indeed. They wouldn't stay on a Bitcoin forum otherwise.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 15, 2013, 04:00:14 PM
#14
I have been labeled a "permabear" by people on this forum more than once, and its not even remotely true. I suspect that most (if not all) of the others being labelled that aren't either.

hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 15, 2013, 03:54:20 PM
#13
Except proudhon is bullish on bitcoin now (and was back in 2011 as well), he also admitted that his bearishness lately was him trolling/playing a character.  

Hes not a "permabear".
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 15, 2013, 03:48:04 PM
#12
there are clearly some individuals that are here that have taken a permanent bearish position

I haven't seen that at all.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
May 15, 2013, 03:18:58 PM
#11
(...) there are clearly some individuals that are here that have taken a permanent bearish position, and while that can be confused to trolling it still shows a pre-disposition to bet to a lower value of the coins.

There's no one that I know of who's being a perma bear.

We pretty much all see huge potential for Bitcoin.

Doesn't mean it can't crash shorter term.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1001
Bitcoin - Resistance is futile
May 15, 2013, 02:41:46 PM
#10
I agree. "Bear" one day "bull" the next. Why should anyone polarize to one side forever or take on a label like bear. The reasons for people not buying bitcoins are far more complex than the given options can explain so I'd have to say "other".

+1 Price needs to be up for a reason, not just the will of sell 1 BTC for 1Million.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
May 15, 2013, 01:53:19 PM
#9
Bulls want more USD, bears want BTC.



Finally, somebody who gets it.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1026
May 15, 2013, 01:03:37 PM
#8
Bulls want more USD, bears want BTC.

full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
One bitcoin to rule them all!
May 15, 2013, 01:02:47 PM
#7
What I dont understand is why people get entrenched into a bull or bear position. The point is to be one the other or neutral and change opinion as deemed nessecary, not be be stubborn and rah rah on as if defending an ideology.

Absolutely

There is some perma-bears and perma-bulls, but most of the time it's a current evaluation.

I am a bear for the short/medium term, but expect to become a bull in the not to far future.
I am also a moderate long-term bull. If I were to either enter or exit, and don't do any trades for 2 yrs, I would be in BTC.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 15, 2013, 12:48:24 PM
#6
Because they believe the price is headed down due to current market conditions.

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