Why Bitcoin Core Developers won't compromise - page 13.

Viper1

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 12:10:52 PM

I don't blame either Bitfury or Bitmain -- they are at least signaling what they perceive to be the best solution.

How do you know that's what they're doing? Are you on the inside hearing all the internal discussions/plans so you can state that for a certainty? I'm certainly highly skeptical as to that being their reason from the information I see.

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 12:10:52 PM

How are investors to blame for trying to make logical arguments about what is happening?

If you're refering to yourself as the investor making logical arguments, I've been reading a lot of your stuff the last couple weeks and I'm sorry, but you're clearly not "just" some lowly investor lol.

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 12:10:52 PM

Bitcoin core devs Would agree to a similar agreement? Very doubtful.

I have no bloody idea what they're thinking. The HK thing was a clusterfuck and as far as I'm concerned the real reason we're where we are despite all the supposed altruistic reasons some people like to promote.

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 12:10:52 PM

Yes, that's their roadmap, but who decides when "if its needed"? Greg? He'll never say its needed. If they can't agree we already need it badly right now, I don't see why there would be any logical explanation for them to act reasonably in the future.

Until segwit and LN are working AND people stop playing games with the network, we won't know whether it's needed or not at that point. Please don't try and tell me it's badly needed now given the "Shenanigans" going on. As for Greg, I think he's a very talented developer and very bright when it comes to that (although his view on bitcoin prior to coming on board was funny), but that's all he should do.

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 12:10:52 PM

Could be. I hope it doesn't end bad as I'm a hodler. Maybe there will be a network split. Who knows.

Could happen. When "Man" tries to gain control over something, they tend to end up destroying it. They often think they know when to stop but often momentum takes over and it's too late. History shows that time and again. So with the way things are going it's a possibility here.

Heruur

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Quote from: Nagadota on May 13, 2017, 08:55:02 AM

The Lightning Network can take a huge amount of transactions largely offchain. The idea of having all transactions fully onchain is not a matter of principle, it's a matter of control from miners so that they can receive transaction fees more often. SegWit allows a slight increase in onchain capacity which is enough for the short term while this offchain scaling can also be implemented.

You're wrong because off-chain transactions are against the nature of Bitcoin and Satoshi vision. All transactions must be ON CHAIN due to many reasons, technology is not in cause here. The decentralization model should also be for Core Dev we have to rethink the process of BIP proposal and reward Dev for it.

For exemple Bitgo Instant is great tool and might be considerated as Off-chain transactions network. You don't need a solution On the network but Off the network it's called business man

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on May 13, 2017, 12:09:05 PM

No amount of tricks can overcome the importance of a full validating node, so forget about SPV. The moment people can't have full validating nodes the whole concept of "peer to peer cash" it's game over.

But why? What's wrong with SPV and fraud proofs for my own transactions? Why do I need to validate the entire blockchain ?

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Quote from: Viper1 on May 13, 2017, 11:58:32 AM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 11:35:42 AM

Quote from: Viper1 on May 13, 2017, 11:31:14 AM

And I know you like to bring out Satoshi as if he was an all seeing all knowing deity that foresaw where things would be decades from the time he created bitcoin. But his short little 1 line comments about some of these large issues forces me to question whether he really gave them the sort of serious thought they apparently needed. At the end of the day, much has changed and we don't have a clue what he might think or do now. Anyone pulling out those old one liners as some sort of "proof" is simply trying to use him to suit their agenda.

But even if I didn't really agree with Satoshi, i would still likely think the core team needs to bend more from their roadmap since 2mb is entirely reasonable, the miners aren't agreeing to "segwit only" and the impasse is damaging Bitcoin. (Yet, core doesn't seem to care and in fact is happy with this. That was my point.)

"Everyone" is damaging Bitcoin. Core, Ver (BU), Jihan, "you". Playing the blame game is damaging. Saying only one side is at fault is damaging.

Miners not signaling a scaling preference are also to blame, I would agree with that. I don't blame either Bitfury or Bitmain -- they are at least signaling what they perceive to be the best solution. How are investors to blame for trying to make logical arguments about what is happening?

Quote

As for "miners", as far as I can see it has nothing to do with segwit only but because maxwell pissed them off. They activated segwit on LTC just on the "promise" of a bigger block size once they get half full (I predict LTC will magically get to half full far quicker than it should). So it looks to me like it's all just out of spite now.

Bitcoin core devs Would agree to a similar agreement? Very doubtful.

Quote

As for core, last I heard the "plan" was something like segwit, LN and if it's still needed a block size increase.

Yes, that's their roadmap, but who decides when "if its needed"? Greg? He'll never say its needed. If they can't agree we already need it badly right now, I don't see why there would be any logical explanation for them to act reasonably in the future.

Quote

As I said, I think not doing hard forks while bitcoin is still "young" and learning lessons from doing them is foolish. So IMO a 2Mb change would have been a good idea for a variety of reasons. But we are where we're at and everyone is entrenching. I see it ending very badly for all of us users that just want to move forward.

Could be. I hope it doesn't end bad as I'm a hodler. Maybe there will be a network split. Who knows.

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 09:13:16 AM

Quote from: cellard on May 13, 2017, 09:04:48 AM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 08:46:33 AM

They cannot honestly and openly admit "yes we want to change Bitcoin from Satoshi's peer to peer cash into a settlement network" because it would be so radical that it would have a high probability of getting backlash from the community. Therefore, they have opted to be sneaky about it.

How do you maintain the promise of so called "peer to peer cash" to scale globally without centralizing the network due huge blocks that people cannot afford to run at home, therefore not anymore peer to peer cash but peer to corporation to peer transaction? (aka what we have already in the current baking system)

Satoshi's vision was that eventually, when the network gets large, only miners need to run full nodes. Ordinary users can use SPV clients.

As the network gets larger, running a full node will become more expensive, but please realize that:

A) part of that cost will be offset by the natural decline in processing and bandwidth costs.

and...

B) By that time, Bitcoin network will be so big that it will still be very decentralized even if the cost barriers to mining increase.

You can have a different opinion than Satoshi, but I find it very suspicious that those who do aren't forthright about it.

Forget about "satoshis" vision and focus on the facts.

Fact: If you raise the blocksize up to a point where people can't run their own nodes, you cannot call it a peer to peer network anymore.

No amount of tricks can overcome the importance of a full validating node, so forget about SPV. The moment people can't have full validating nodes the whole concept of "peer to peer cash" it's game over.

Fact: Technology is not going to catch up with the huge blocksizes we would need, not in terms of storage and not in terms of bandwith. Mainstream level transaction onchain will always be ahead of the curve when it comes to running full validating nodes, which means mainstream level transactions are impossible onchain without a centralized network where corporations run the nodes.

If satoshi wanted datacenters to run full nodes then he was objectively wrong in calling his project a peer to peer cash network because it's not peer to peer and certainly not cash.

Viper1

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 11:35:42 AM

Quote from: Viper1 on May 13, 2017, 11:31:14 AM

And I know you like to bring out Satoshi as if he was an all seeing all knowing deity that foresaw where things would be decades from the time he created bitcoin. But his short little 1 line comments about some of these large issues forces me to question whether he really gave them the sort of serious thought they apparently needed. At the end of the day, much has changed and we don't have a clue what he might think or do now. Anyone pulling out those old one liners as some sort of "proof" is simply trying to use him to suit their agenda.

But even if I didn't really agree with Satoshi, i would still likely think the core team needs to bend more from their roadmap since 2mb is entirely reasonable, the miners aren't agreeing to "segwit only" and the impasse is damaging Bitcoin. (Yet, core doesn't seem to care and in fact is happy with this. That was my point.)

"Everyone" is damaging Bitcoin. Core, Ver (BU), Jihan, "you". Playing the blame game is damaging. Saying only one side is at fault is damaging. As for "miners", as far as I can see it has nothing to do with segwit only but because maxwell pissed them off. They activated segwit on LTC just on the "promise" of a bigger block size once they get half full (I predict LTC will magically get to half full far quicker than it should). So it looks to me like it's all just out of spite now. As for core, last I heard the "plan" was something like segwit, LN and if it's still needed a block size increase. As I said, I think not doing hard forks while bitcoin is still "young" and learning lessons from doing them is foolish. So IMO a 2Mb change would have been a good idea for a variety of reasons. But we are where we're at and everyone is entrenching. I see it ending very badly for all of us users that just want to move forward.

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 08:46:33 AM

To summarize: There is no need to compromise further because no change works in their favor.

Whose favor are we talking about exactly?

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 08:46:33 AM

They cannot honestly and openly admit "yes we want to change Bitcoin from Satoshi's peer to peer cash into a settlement network" because it would be so radical that it would have a high probability of getting backlash from the community. Therefore, they have opted to be sneaky about it.

Stop quoting Satoshi out of context to please your shilling overlords. Roll Eyes

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Quote from: Viper1 on May 13, 2017, 11:31:14 AM

And I know you like to bring out Satoshi as if he was an all seeing all knowing deity that foresaw where things would be decades from the time he created bitcoin. But his short little 1 line comments about some of these large issues forces me to question whether he really gave them the sort of serious thought they apparently needed. At the end of the day, much has changed and we don't have a clue what he might think or do now. Anyone pulling out those old one liners as some sort of "proof" is simply trying to use him to suit their agenda.

But even if I didn't really agree with Satoshi, i would still likely think the core team needs to bend more from their roadmap since 2mb is entirely reasonable, the miners aren't agreeing to "segwit only" and the impasse is damaging Bitcoin. (Yet, core doesn't seem to care and in fact is happy with this. That was my point.)

Viper1

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 11:06:08 AM

Quote from: Viper1 on May 13, 2017, 10:07:25 AM

I'm so tired of all the propaganda. Even if the big block (BU) side could convince me it was the right thing to do (and studying both sides of the argument from an actual technical and risk standpoint failed to do that), I'm so sick of it I would side against them simply due to all the bullshit I hear from that side. You want to win people over, then do it with hard facts, data and logical reasoned debate etc. Franky I think both sides are filled with prima dona arrogant twats. I think segwit is a good idea but I also think the whole hard fork bad, let's not do 2Mb blocks is ridiculous. Taken in it's entirety, I'm "stuck" opposing big blocks and supporting what core is doing.

But we've been there, done that. For example Gavin did actually testing on 8MB blocks 2 years ago. And there are SIMPLE solutions to QH. Everyone knows 2MB would be fine. Not sure would you oppose this because you don't like certain personalities.

Gavin is a really nice guy but I've read a lot of his stuff on here and IMO he's naive when it comes to risks. Funny cause I read a comment he made about that somewhere as apparently others have made the same observation. As I said. IMO 2Mb was a no brainer and I have an issue with core taking a "no hard fork" stance (at least yet as they haven't taken bigger blocks off the table). But when I compare the two from a technical and risk standpoint, I'm forced to go with core. Not because I really want to but because the alternative is far less acceptable to me. And to be clear, I really don't like certain personalities on either side.

And I know you like to bring out Satoshi as if he was an all seeing all knowing deity that foresaw where things would be decades from the time he created bitcoin. But his short little 1 line comments about some of these large issues forces me to question whether he really gave them the sort of serious thought they apparently needed. At the end of the day, much has changed and we don't have a clue what he might think or do now. Anyone pulling out those old one liners as some sort of "proof" is simply trying to use him to suit their agenda.

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Quote from: Viper1 on May 13, 2017, 10:07:25 AM

I'm so tired of all the propaganda. Even if the big block (BU) side could convince me it was the right thing to do (and studying both sides of the argument from an actual technical and risk standpoint failed to do that), I'm so sick of it I would side against them simply due to all the bullshit I hear from that side. You want to win people over, then do it with hard facts, data and logical reasoned debate etc. Franky I think both sides are filled with prima dona arrogant twats. I think segwit is a good idea but I also think the whole hard fork bad, let's not do 2Mb blocks is ridiculous. Taken in it's entirety, I'm "stuck" opposing big blocks and supporting what core is doing.

But we've been there, done that. For example Gavin did actually testing on 8MB blocks 2 years ago. And there are SIMPLE solutions to QH. Everyone knows 2MB would be fine. Not sure would you oppose this because you don't like certain personalities.

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Quote from: franky1 on May 13, 2017, 09:49:09 AM

Quote from: Nagadota on May 13, 2017, 08:55:02 AM

The Lightning Network can take a huge amount of transactions largely offchain. The idea of having all transactions fully onchain is not a matter of principle, it's a matter of control from miners so that they can receive transaction fees more often. SegWit allows a slight increase in onchain capacity which is enough for the short term while this offchain scaling can also be implemented.

malicious spammers wont use segwit keys nor will they use lightning.
they will continue to native spam the baseblock which will still distrupt segwit keys users and lightning open/close channel operations

segwit/lightning does not solve the real problems. it just pushes innocent people away from native bitcoin with hopes and utopian dreams, but no promiss/guarantee's

The resources that spammers need to pressure the network wouldn't necessarily change very much with larger blocks. They can just send lower transaction fees for their transactions that never confirm. Higher fees mean that spam can only take the network so far as the resources needed for it rise, and therefore solutions like LN are good for there to be low fees overall due to reuse of payment channels, and low fees for larger transactions because as a percentage those fees would still be miniature.

Viper1

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I'm so tired of all the propaganda. Even if the big block (BU) side could convince me it was the right thing to do (and studying both sides of the argument from an actual technical and risk standpoint failed to do that), I'm so sick of it I would side against them simply due to all the bullshit I hear from that side. You want to win people over, then do it with hard facts, data and logical reasoned debate etc. Franky I think both sides are filled with prima dona arrogant twats. I think segwit is a good idea but I also think the whole hard fork bad, let's not do 2Mb blocks is ridiculous. Taken in it's entirety, I'm "stuck" opposing big blocks and supporting what core is doing.

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Quote from: Nagadota on May 13, 2017, 08:55:02 AM

The Lightning Network can take a huge amount of transactions largely offchain. The idea of having all transactions fully onchain is not a matter of principle, it's a matter of control from miners so that they can receive transaction fees more often. SegWit allows a slight increase in onchain capacity which is enough for the short term while this offchain scaling can also be implemented.

malicious spammers wont use segwit keys nor will they use lightning.
they will continue to native spam the baseblock which will still distrupt segwit keys users and lightning open/close channel operations

segwit/lightning does not solve the real problems. it just pushes innocent people away from native bitcoin with hopes and utopian dreams, but no promiss/guarantee's

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Beg your pool operator overlords if you want a compromise.

Carlton Banks

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jonald's totally right, Segwit 4MB blocks do not change the scale of the Bitcoin network's use of resources.

But jonald's preferred plans only make that situation worse, too. He goes on and on and on about on-chain scaling, but always presents ideas (about 5 different non-scaling ideas in 2 years, and counting) that don't change the scale the Bitcoin network performs at, they just increase the capacity, at the expense of a decentralised network where the users are in control.

We can have both. We can have capacity increases, and safeguard the Bitcoin network so that regualr users are in control of the rules. Anyone would think that jonald doesn't want that, by the way he carries on Wink

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Segwitt +side-chains are the only possible way to make Bitcoin mainstream. Some people cannot see how aswesome all those chains will be.

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The evolution of bitcoin scaling is not to have on-chain scaling solution. We can see other way to upgrade bitcoin network through off-chain infrastructure.

You see Coinbase is keeping bitcoins on its system. Same as Purse.io they will credit customer instantly and we don't have to pay any fees on chain.
And now imagine that Coinbase and Purse will engage in bilateral trades. If I would like to send coins to Purse, Purse will ask Coinbase, is this an address you control?
Then all we need is signed message from Coinbase (a cryptographic proof). There will be no transaction necessary on the blockchain, no fees, no wait time, no confirmation.

I see SegWit as a first step in the right direction of building off-chain network, and compromise is not necessary.

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Quote from: cellard on May 13, 2017, 09:04:48 AM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on May 13, 2017, 08:46:33 AM

They cannot honestly and openly admit "yes we want to change Bitcoin from Satoshi's peer to peer cash into a settlement network" because it would be so radical that it would have a high probability of getting backlash from the community. Therefore, they have opted to be sneaky about it.

How do you maintain the promise of so called "peer to peer cash" to scale globally without centralizing the network due huge blocks that people cannot afford to run at home, therefore not anymore peer to peer cash but peer to corporation to peer transaction? (aka what we have already in the current baking system)

Satoshi's vision was that eventually, when the network gets large, only miners need to run full nodes. Ordinary users can use SPV clients.

As the network gets larger, running a full node will become more expensive, but please realize that:

A) part of that cost will be offset by the natural decline in processing and bandwidth costs.

and...

B) By that time, Bitcoin network will be so big that it will still be very decentralized even if the cost barriers to mining increase.

You can have a different opinion than Satoshi, but I find it very suspicious that those who do aren't forthright about it.

Quote from: Qartada on May 13, 2017, 09:09:06 AM

Less onchain scaling doesn't have to mean that Bitcoin becomes a "settlement network".

What they'd prefer is limited onchain scaing -

This is what they want you to believe, but the fact they are unwilling to compromise AT ALL, even if the face of quickly rising fees, terrible congestion, and frightening losses of marketshare...should tell you something. Actions speak louder than words.

Topic: Why Bitcoin Core Developers won't compromise - page 13. (Read 11821 times)