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Topic: Why bitcoin is currently (Jan 16th) crashing and why it may continue - page 2. (Read 5951 times)

full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
As you probably know, the "Bitcoin for Dummies" episode was a huge success.  Many people are searching for bitcoin and many people are buying bitcoin.   Because of this, many people are trying to buy on Bitcoinica.  Too many people are trying to buy, so Bitcoinica ran out of reserve.

 I find this quote suspect and self-serving.. or very naive. what evidence are they presenting that people saw this tv episode and somehow discovered bitcoinia?   For one thing, the best known exchange is mtgox.. and there was not even a volume spike on mtgox, much less a price rise.   Also, it will take noobs about a week just to fund their mtgox accounts with dollars via dwolla.  
The benefit of the episode "Bitcoin for Dummies" was not instant gratification, nor a significant motivator to bring in any substantial influx of new adopters.  Instead it was something much more substantial, an aggressive reminder that persistently reiterated the word "Bitcoin" (some 40 times?) into the ears of the viewers, and even included a full-on tutorial video and positive framing.

The TV episode's exposure was to a high quality, prime time, main stream viewership (think, "other media types.")  And since it was in the episode's title, it also systemically planted the word "Bitcoin" directly into the headlines of many newspaper and TV review blogs, including the New York Times and Huffington Post.  For a brief period, the word "bitcoin" graced the front page of the NYT and, for many people, may have been the first time that word "Bitcoin" came back again after the last press push pre June 2011.  And as far as the episode goes, that word didn't come passively.  To me, the exposure equated to "It didn't die; it's still here" and for the first time it was acknowledged as "hip" and "cool" by Hollywood.

As I said in another thread, it was a solid advertising 2.0 push.  A company couldn't have bought better product placement.
legendary
Activity: 2408
Merit: 1009
Legen -wait for it- dary
I wonder when the manipulator with his ~$250000 AND ~BTC50000 will start playing bitcoinica...  (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/large-walls-moving-on-gox-orderbook-aka-manipulator-diagram-59847)

he could directly hammer the price down to $5.85, would this not liquidate a lot of people on bitcoinica? He could then catch all these coins raining down.


I've actually thought about doing just this. Then I thought about the numerous failed attempts at driving the price down by some large holder in previous weeks.

Then again, 50k leveraged at 10:1 would certainly take us to the $4 range, liquidating anyone who went long >$5...

Also, he would be stupid putting $250,000 in bitcoinica. It would clear, everyone else would see the opportunity to cash out, and he would be stuck with the dreaded *BEOD (Bulls-eye of death).
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1020
I wonder when the manipulator with his ~$250000 AND ~BTC50000 will start playing bitcoinica...  (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/large-walls-moving-on-gox-orderbook-aka-manipulator-diagram-59847)

he could directly hammer the price down to $5.85, would this not liquidate a lot of people on bitcoinica? He could then catch all these coins raining down.

member
Activity: 85
Merit: 10
As you probably know, the "Bitcoin for Dummies" episode was a huge success.  Many people are searching for bitcoin and many people are buying bitcoin.   Because of this, many people are trying to buy on Bitcoinica.  Too many people are trying to buy, so Bitcoinica ran out of reserve.

 I find this quote suspect and self-serving.. or very naive. what evidence are they presenting that people saw this tv episode and somehow discovered bitcoinia?   For one thing, the best known exchange is mtgox.. and there was not even a volume spike on mtgox, much less a price rise.   Also, it will take noobs about a week just to fund their mtgox accounts with dollars via dwolla. 
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Come on people! We need more doom and gloom threads for the price to go up!

The sky is falling! Bitcoins are falling! The world is over!

(now rise my Bitcoin!)
legendary
Activity: 2408
Merit: 1009
Legen -wait for it- dary
The price doesn't drop because people want to buy. It just gets massively unstable if everyone buys on margin.

Excessive margin trading is not healthy, and I have no understanding why one would use it just now. IMO, this is one of the worst situations for margin trading, the market doesn't look stable at all and I also know of no convergence that is bound to happen.

Isn't this the kind of situation in which one takes a balanced position and lowers risks, not multiplies them up even more? Huh

Agreed! If I were to use it, it would ONLY be for a "sure thing", or as close as you could get anyway. Right now, things could still go either way while someone is pushing it.
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1002
The price doesn't drop because people want to buy. It just gets massively unstable if everyone buys on margin.

Excessive margin trading is not healthy, and I have no understanding why one would use it just now. IMO, this is one of the worst situations for margin trading, the market doesn't look stable at all and I also know of no convergence that is bound to happen.

Isn't this the kind of situation in which one takes a balanced position and lowers risks, not multiplies them up even more? Huh
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
When will MtGox support hedging?  Huh
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Would be interesting to know what kind of money this guy has got as a reserve given it is widely believed he is a teenager.

Not enough, obviously
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Regarding the spikes of doom... Who keeps leaving their computer on so their cat can walz all over the keyboard?

Someone with way too much money to be trusting a cat.
legendary
Activity: 1615
Merit: 1000
Regarding the spikes of doom... Who keeps leaving their computer on so their cat can walz all over the keyboard?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Hey guys... * has been gone for a while now.

It is?  I just logged in.

Quote
BTC/USD ▲*6.71930 Buy

It was gone for a bit. Long enough for me to put a bet by buying some at 8-1 leverage. Ill probably end up losing all the profit I made with my 1BTC initial investment. Thats all of  2.5 BTC Cheesy.
sr. member
Activity: 387
Merit: 250
I don't trust Bitcoinica... he's 17? Experience of responsability = 0
i would never give him my money...

Bitcoinica isn't Bitcoin and will not cause a crash beacause its foolish mechanism...
it's only my opinion...
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
Hey guys... * has been gone for a while now.

Time for a nice spike up I think Wink

It happened, but it was leveraged case the * is back.

I guess Zhou only had a few G's lying around lol
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Hey guys... * has been gone for a while now.

It is?  I just logged in.

Quote
BTC/USD ▲*6.71930 Buy
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Hey guys... * has been gone for a while now.

Time for a nice spike up I think Wink

It happened, but it was leveraged because the * is back.
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
And the * is back ....
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
Hey guys... * has been gone for a while now.

Time for a nice spike up I think Wink
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Hey guys... * has been gone for a while now.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
As soon as some of the longs are liquidated, those of us who still have some margin held back will catch the knife...

That is exactly the problem.

Since so many people want to buy, Bitcoinca will not have reserve until there are less people wanting to buy.

Since there will CONTINUE to be no reserve (because people are trying to catch the knife), this problem will get worse.


When a few more people start shorting, the people who are longing will be liquidated and/or panic.




We already dropped from 7.18 to 6.55 and we still have no reserve.


This problem is only getting worse.

There is no crash and the consolidation above 6.5 could be a great and one of the last buying opportunites before a breakout.
It's not a buying opportunity if there is no reserve.

I think this is the most insightful post I have read for a while. Everyone is seeing the blinking asterisk of bitcoinica and concluding that there is simply huge buying pressure.

However, the blinking eye (i.e. no reserve) also means that a lot of people have bought, and that there has to be some kind of leveraged component to that (else their would be no blinking eye).

It all boils down to how leveraged up this net long position in bitcoinica is. Zhou says 'normally 6 figures' for USD holdings, so they are holding between 100k and 999k of bitcoinica USDs. These are probably not all in bitcoin, as some people are leveraged. (e.g. if someone deposits $1 then they could potentially use up to $10 of bitcoinca's USD holding) so if they only have $100k USD and that was all leveraged 10:1 then that would only be ~1600BTC ($10k/worth). Conversely if they held 999k are all in bitcoin with no leverage that would be around 160k - but wholly unleveraged there would be no 'liquidation squeeze' to speak of.

The reality then is that there are something between 1600 - 160k bit coins leveraged at anything up to x10.  Zhou has mentioned they have 'normally 5 figures' of bitcoin. This puts the real figure somewhere between 10k-100k bitcoin again potentially with leverage up to 10x. Generally speaking the higher the total number of bit coins they have on hand the lower the net leverage is likely to be as the greater number of bit coins requires a greater number of 'real' dollars to back.

The other factor to then consider is what the internal hedging position is. However many net BTC short the shorts are can be internally hedged against the longs. So the USD holdings only cover the discrepancy between internal short and long positions. Bitcoinica claims to be 42% hedged, if that means the other 58% is net zero internally. Then (for the sake of simplicity we'll round to 50%) there is double the above figure (10-100k BTC) long right now, and the same again short.

Now I'm not sure what conclusions people will draw from this, because every day I read bits of information here and there, and then find myself amazed at how commentary extrapolates this info into some uber-bullish statement.

Speculating on how many BTC bitcoinca has at what leverage is the name of the game, plump for the middle holdings ($500k) & leverage(5:1), take a $6 purchase price and your zhoutong price as about $5. 250k in at $4 at 2.5:1 and your zhoutong price is around $2.56 for . However if you take the irrationally exuberant position of being leveraged up say 10:1 on $500k at an average purchase price of $6 your average shouting price is ~$5.64 and you have around 83k BTC to liquidate.

As you can see a marketplace that has been in the 'bitcoin is going to the moon' mindset, that was suddenly faced with declining price could quite possibly be leveraged up enough to cause a spectacular downward spike as all the leveraged longs get liquidated. 80k BTC selloff into an already bearish market, with shorts piling on. This is exactly how it is possible to test $2 again. As a long term bull, temporary bear, I fully expect a flaming so knock yourself out permabulls!
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