Topic: Why Bitcoin mining isn’t a waste of energy? - page 6. (Read 1087 times)

Mining cryptocurrencies and especially bitcoin is not a waste of energy resources. It’s resources and money invested in the most secure financial network on earth. Bitcoin professor Andreas Antonopoulos tackled this subject in recent Q&A on his Youtube channel. Even though Bitcoin is much smaller than the banking business, it’s probably also more efficient.
Antonopoulos sees mining as the effect of market conditions. It’s a profitable business and therefore there are developments in the optimization of the mining process. However, the biggest costs in mining comes from electricity. That’s why mining farms often chooseour natural resources of electricity over the traditional electricity net. I think about hydro generators in Russia and China, wind energy and solar energy in for example the United States.
“It is not a waste of money. It is money that has been well spend and invested by miners in order to buy us all the most robust system of immutability, security and protection against  spending double that has ever been invented.”

Thanks.
The simple answer is that, you don't. The very fact that people are highlighting that Bitcoin has been consuming tons of energy means that it is working. PoW is working because it is prohibitively expensive and unprofitable for an adversary to attack the chain. We don't have to change something that is working.

The only thing that has to change is people's arguments towards Bitcoin's electricity wastage. Yes, Bitcoin consumes a ton of electricity, and isn't as efficient as other payment processors... But, there is a potential for it to eventually scale and serve as a substitute for the financial systems around the globe and as a universal payment processor at the same time. It simply doesn't make sense for Bitcoiners to refute the arguments by deflecting it to:

1) Other issues, ie. non-close substitutes.
2) Renewable energy; Doesn't mean zero environmental impact, doesn't mean zero e-waste, doesn't mean zero opportunity costs
3) Some ridiculous arguments which has no relation whatsoever to the issue at hand.

My point is that it is simply better to embrace that Bitcoin is an inefficient currency right now. Trying to refute the said arguments with the points above just makes us look like fools and cultist.

Fair points and a very well constructed argument.

The thing is, how do we ensure the security of a chain without wasting this much energy? I mean, if we don't care about the decentralized aspects of Bitcoin then we probably shouldn't be using it after all. So since we do care about its decentralized aspects.. how do we make this possible?

Since there's no known better technology than Bitcoin/PoW, this is simply the best we can do. There is enough time for open-source to be explored and to make Bitcoin better as time goes on. But the issue is, the Bitcoin community generally doesn't like changes. Therefore, even if we did find a better alternative to PoW, chances are it'd be instantly rejected by the crypto community.

This thing is double-edged. You have a currency that needs upgrades but upgrades mean acceptance, which this particular community doesn't agree with very well.

That begs a few questions; What is the closest substitute to Christmas lights and gaming consoles? What is the electrical consumption of them? How much e-waste is produced as a result of them? What is the perceived utility of them? Is it fair to compare two completely different subjects? Shouldn't we be comparing it to the next best alternative?

There is both sides to a coin. Saying Bitcoin is a blatant waste of electricity is wrong, because PoW is meant to consume large amount of resources in exchange for the security of the chain. It is, however not wrong to argue that Bitcoin is a worse choice of payment medium as compared to Visa, Mastercard, SEPA, etc in terms of efficiency. Bitcoin's TPS is probably about 7-10 TPS, avg is about 3-4TPS in these few days and I daresay there is a larger proportion of transfers between services or exchanges than actual day-to-day use. Going by that, the efficiency of Bitcoin as a currency is far lower than that of it's closest substitute, by a ton. I think Visa alone processes 1,700 TPS probably at a far lower environmental degradation to Bitcoin.

The argument about Bitcoin's electricity wastage has nothing to do with the law of conservation of energy. Duh, electrical energy is primarily converted to heat energy. We're saying that there is a more efficient payment method than what we're currently having. 3TPS just doesn't cut it.

Bitcoin would work perfectly well if there were just 10 computers in the world processing transactions.  Any more than that is purely greed by the miners and a complete waste of energy.  We are stuck in a useless loop of building faster asics and then buying more of them to try and outdo eachother.  Remember whe btc dropped to $4K and mining stopped being profitable?  Best thing ever for the environment.

PoW energy is actually used to produce value. It's more like how lots of energy is used to produce valuable precious metals like Gold. It's like saying you need to work hard to produce value.... So you solve problems and value is produced.
In a truely decentralized cryptocurrency, make sure all/most participants are able to solve problems to earn values in form of rewards/crypto.  Finally, solving problems requires energy. It will take energy to solve problems, but we need to ensure that the energy sources are clean/renewable, and that the miners use energy efficiently in a way that the right amount of energy goes mostly in solving problem and little/nothing goes to waste. Or you can solve thesame problems the right way and achieve the right result without requiring thesame amount of electricity used by the current miners

I love this piece of yours explaining to us the scientific background on Bitcoin mining though I have to admit that I don't fully comprehend everything you are saying just because I am just a very "normal" guy who is not so inclined to many things science...but don't worry because I do really appreciate the things you are trying to hammer us on. Honestly speaking, to anyone who is not interested or even a person who has taken the side of those in the anti-Bitcoin group, there is no explanation that can suffice but to those who love what Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general do represent, no technical explanation can be needed though it is always valued and appreciated. 

Hi, dude, thank you for your wonderful reply. These text walls of mine are really hard to read. But what I want to explore is the logic behind these things. What you said is great, Bitcoin mining is transforming energy into value. What I want to explain now is why Bitcoin mining can transform energy into value? It also follows the law of conservation of energy. This is a process in which energy is transformed into computing power, computing power is transformed into bitcoin, and finally value is stored in the form of bitcoin. Perhaps most people are not interested in this, but I believe that there will still be a small number of people who care about the underlying logic behind it. At the same time, the views I summarized may not be completely correct. I put forward these points for more friends to think together.

By consuming it the energy won't go to waste and there is no harm in the environment as well. As for those people who think Bitcoin mining will cause a power shortage, then that's not gonna happen since those machines that are used to mine bitcoins has some minimum power consumption. They just using some manipulative words to control the market by tweeting negative words which do not make any sense. Thankfully we have some great researchers that are experts when it comes to this kind of thing and they clarified that it doesn't bring any harm and it is all safe.

I do love the concept of storage of energy and value, and you know it's strange but a lot of gamers and collectors tell you the same thing and I don't think they're wrong.

For example you know they sort of in the past with the MMORPG games where some coins are only collectible by spending time hacking and slashing (you can't buy the coins except from other players). Then it's literally time and electricity spent by players to just game and grind and collect. Which they then sell for real money.

Not as valuable as Bitcoin because it can't be used anywhere else but it's the same concept:)

Dude,do you have to write boring walls of text to prove your point?
Bitcoin mining is transforming energy into value.
People,who think that Bitcoin is useless and worthless also think that BTC mining is a waste of energy.
This is opinion,not knowledge.We have to differentiate opinions from facts and knowledge.
If Bitcoin mining was a waste of energy,then nobody would bother buying mining hardware and building mining facilities.

Bitcoin consumes energy, but it's really not a waste. If someone considers it to be a waste, they either don't understand Bitcoin or they have a different agenda in mind. BTC ensures an ecosystem that is free and decentralized, a kind of currency humanity never had before. Therefore, it's not a waste but nor is it a storage of energy. Can't call "storage" something that isn't able to give back energy, if it makes sense. BTC is just a free currency that uses energy to function.

The thing is.... What is a waste ..in people's perception?

Is energy wasted when a person use that energy to play video games that requires a massive GPU and that person is playing that game for hours every day?

Is energy wasted when 1000's of households sit in front of a huge Plasma or Led Television that are linked to a powerful surround sound system and they watch movies and series for hours and hours?

What if that GPU can be used to generate income by mining Alt coins and selling them or if the same GPU can be used to process transactions for an alternative currency?  (Blockchain) <== This puts food on the table and it runs a payment system...

In your opinion.... given the information above, what would you define as a waste?

Although it's an interesting idea, I think that's wrong. The energy is not stored per se into Bitcoin, it's - let's face it - still consumed in the real world, hence this idea will be easily opposed by anybody. And Bitcoin is a virtual thing, it cannot store anything, it only has the value we give it to it, seen by the price we agree to trade it for.

The fact that this price is related to the cost of mining is caused by the fact the mining reward is still big. With the reward going down more and more over years this relation should get broken at some point, when the miners will no longer be able to stay as main sellers.

Also it's related to the fact that most miners buy their electricity, and some not even cheap. If the vast majority will have their own renewable sources, after paying for all the "gears", they'll no longer be tied to the price of electricity and the idea of "store of energy" would no longer have ground.


So while Bitcoin mining is indeed not a waste of energy, I find your reasoning behind it incorrect.

I mean, it's safe to assume that most of the "Bitcoin is a waste of energy" people probably didn't even spend enough time thinking to grasp the concept of "store of energy". That, along with the dozens and dozens of nonsense criticisms against Bitcoin.

As far as I know though, the argument against Bitcoin's energy usage is mostly in the environmental perspective. That Bitcoin is unnecessary hence is causing unnecessary damage to the environment. Funnily enough, people criticize Bitcoin's energy usage with them turning a blind eye on other "unnecessary"(not necessarily bad, but not necessarily needed for humanity to survive) energy hogs such as Christmas lights and gaming consoles.

The growing influence of Bitcoin in the world has attracted more and more supporters. But at the same time, criticism against Bitcoin has never stopped. Many people disapprove Bitcoin because they believe Bitcoin mining wastes too much energy, esp, electricity, whereas Bitcoin itself does not create any value.

As far as I'm concerned, the POW model in Bitcoin mining is definitely not a waste of energy, but instead a storage of energy and value. That is the basis of the value of Bitcoin and the existence of Bitcoin.

Ethereum has initially formed a complete ecology in the past five to six years, yet it didn't manage to withstand the pressure of all parties, finally choosing to convert the consensus mechanism from POW to POS and leaving Bitcoin the only one that sticks to POW. POW consumes energy on the surface, but in essence it stores energy and value. Now, let’s interpret the process from the perspective of physics. To begin with, the first law of thermodynamics.

That law refers to energy protection and transformation in the field of thermal phenomena. It reflects the conservation of different forms of energy during transformation and conversion. The concrete expression is: the increase in the internal energy of an object is equal to the amount of heat absorbed by the object and the work imposed on the object. That is, heat can be transferred from one problem to another stage, or it can be converted into mechanical energy or other energies, but during that process, the total volume of energy remains unchanged. Its extension and essence is the famous "law of conservation of energy".

The law of conservation of energy is one of the basic laws in nature. It is generally expressed like this: energy neither emerges out of the void nor disappears from nowhere. It only transforms from one form to another, or from one object to another, while the total amount always remains the same. If a system is in isolation, then it is impossible for energy or mass to pass into or out of the system. In this case, the law of conservation of energy is that the total energy of the isolated system stays fixed.

In terms of time, space, matter and energy, human beings know a lot about energy, but also very little. Energy seems very mysterious, it's about the transformation of material movement. Everything in the world is in constant motion. Among all the attributes of matter, movement is the most basic one, and others are all the specific manifestations. Energy exists in diverse forms. According to the forms of movement, energy can be divided into electrical energy, nuclear energy, mechanical energy, chemical energy, thermal energy, radiation energy, light energy, biological energy, etc. These different forms of energy can be converted into each other through physical effects or chemical reactions.

About energy, what mankind can do now is to continuously transform the energy in nature into energy that can be used by mankind through technology and into the momentum for the development of human society. In daily lives, oil and electricity impress us most. We refuel cars every day, turning the energy contained in the oil into the energy for running cars. We use electricity all the time to supply the normal operation of the entire human civilization. But electricity does not come out of the blue, but from the transformation of hydropower, wind energy, coal, oil, etc. Water and food supplement the energy humans need, otherwise death comes. 

Bitcoin mining we are currently conducting is essentially a process of energy conversion. Firstly, water energy, wind energy, solar energy, geothermal energy and so on are converted into electrical energy that mining machines need to participate in hash calculation, which forms computing power, entering the accounting work of Bitcoin, and then obtaining the Bitcoin reward. In the end, the energy of nature is stored in the form of Bitcoin, that is, the value is stored. Bitcoin mining is not free, it has cost, it needs to consume physical mining machines, it needs to consume energy. The energy consumption process is the process of energy transmission, being converted into stored Bitcoin, which happens to be the value support of Bitcoin. Based on this, no other cryptocurrency can replace Bitcoin.

What do you think?