Topic: Why btc cannot move pow to pos - page 3. (Read 903 times)

Just answered that here:

I think it is easier to "centralize" Bitcoin mining, when someone can simply buy a shitload of tokens and have a huge say in the direction that the project is going..... in PoS, that is the case. A Fiat whale can simply buy a lot of tokens and then have a huge say in a lot of decisions that usually were made through consensus from Full nodes in Bitcoin mining.

In PoW.... this is not as easy, because you have to invest a lot of time and money into ASICs and you have to hire people to run those mining farms and you have to spend on the expenses of such a mining farm. (Electricity & labour & hardware etc...) 

I see the btc proganda cult nutjobs
BlackHatCoiner & Tadamichi have come to spread their nonsense.

If these two cult members are correct,
then PoW is safe and those numerous all over the world news articles about energy waste and government bans are all made up.
Quite the Conspiracy they believe in.

Odds are higher these two are just morons, and the many articles that show the PoW bans are coming are accurate.


 

FYI:
Like I said earlier, the BTC community is too clueless to admit PoW is a failed design.
Which is why they would fail to convert to Proof of Stake before the Proof of Waste ban occurs.
They can not even recognize the problem, those morons thought China banned PoW because they were afraid of btc.  
Stupid train gonna keep running over them until the death spiral.

"Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears; I come to bury BTC Proof of Waste, not to praise it."
 
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/white-house-suggests-banning-proof-of-work-mining-used-by-bitcoin

I believe the current risks of POS is just too much to make it at least acceptable to choose over the proof-of-work consensus system that we have right now. Although this comes at a price in the form of our climate and environment deteriorating. But in all honesty, that is a problem that these oil companies choose to actively ignore because there had been and always had been opportunities for us to switch to a cleaner source of energy and yet we don't. And as in the case of bitcoin mining a lot of massive miners are actually building their own farms with renewable sources of energy given the fact that some countries ban the use of residential electricity for mining.

I was once a POS believer, given the fact that the current consensus system is flawed and of course could be made better, but doing my research and weighing the factors down, I'd rather wait for my transaction to go through than lose my money from a hacker attack that devastated my coin's POS system due to it being so centralized.

The real problem is your understanding of decentralization and geography. If you’re that convinced of PoS on Bitcoin, i suggest you start running a PoS node here and save us all from doomsday. I hope the time between this message and then will still be enough for you to save us.

Is this what altcoiners dream about at night? I mean it must get harder and harder to keep convincing an army of unknowledgeable users that building a rube goldberg machine is innovation and serves any purpose, in the altcoin world. And to bring them to keep dumping money into promise-utopia — deliver-nothing roadmaps.

The death of decentralised money would be Bitcoin switching to PoS, not fruitless bans of authoritarians that can’t even keep their own currencies together.

People that verify independently, enforce the rules of the network on their own node and decide which rules run on their own node are taking leadership over their own destiny. It’s not the passive kind of sheep mentality that checks Twitter or YouTube 24/7 to see where their idol claims to bring them. Bitcoin is bursting with leaders and void of rulers. Anyone with common sense will realise why this a feature not a bug.

See? That's the problem with you. You want "strong" leaders, because you're weak, no offense. We don't understand decentralization the same. To you, it's just decentralization as long as the leaders agree with the masses. Otherwise it's "bad decentralization". If it doesn't go well with governments and feudalists, bad!

This particular nonsense you've spit is a feature, not a bug. Bitcoin has no leaders, and that's the whole point. There's no Vitalik to spear the news. There's no Powell to bail out the oligarchs. No Changpeng Zhao to adjust the supply for that one business' benefit. Bitcoin takes out human corruption, because the humans that found it stepped away.

For us who support btc, we know the truth and that is the energy consumption of btc is not too much than what the outsiders think. There are still ways for btc to become more friendly to the environment and that is if miners will use renewable energies. See? There is no real need for btc to transfer to proof of stake.

Btc is known to be a decentralized coin but I think there are also manipulators on here like the whales but I think this isn't worst than if btc changed its consensus mechanism. Some says that there are now pos versions of btc so why won't those who are concern about the environment use that instead? That should have solved their problem easily.

Actually a change that completely removes the PoW miners would not require their inclusion in any consensus.

The real problem with btc, is it is completely rudderless since satoshi disappearance.
BTC has no strong leaders, and no strong devs,
which is why it sits in a pathetic low transactions, energy wasteful , and soon to be banned proof of waste design.

What will happen , is the btc community will do nothing except deny their is a problem, until the US & Europe bans proof of waste mining.

Their literally will not be enough time to convert to a PoS design,
so BTC either converts to a token on one of the strong PoS networks, ethereum or cardano.
or
The BTC network dies in a US / Europe government induced death spiral.
Because not only will they ban the mining, they will also ban the coin being traded by their citizens driving the price of btc to $Zero almost overnight.

 


FYI:
10 Reason Why Conversion of BTC to PoS will Fail.
Requires the following
1. Admit PoW is a tech dead end that will be banned by the world governments
2. Start working on a PoS conversion years before the ban.
3. Choose which type of PoS code base to use.
4. Begin the conversion and testing , which will take years like ethereum conversion did.
5. Does the current reward stand, or does the community modify it.
6. Is Segwit removed.
7. Can segwit locked coins stake.
8. Since PoS can support higher onchain transaction capacity, why keep segwit or useless offchain networks like LN or Liquid.
9. All Pruned nodes will no longer function. Security effects.
10.  Exactly who will coordinate the conversion.

Considering the lack of leadership at the wayward btc community, nothing will be done,
and by the time the Governments say enough is enough, it will be too late for anything except btc becoming a token.  

BTC community is unable to even admit that proof of waste is a dead end,
which is why their is no growth or real evolution of the dead tech running btc.

Who said it can't?

BTC very well may move to PoS.

But this decision requires consensus. If the user base and the miners accept this change then it will happen.

In my opinion, this would happen only when we hit a wall with PoW. When PoW leaves us with no room to expand then people will take PoS more seriously. That will probably happen in the future but probably not in the next 5-10 years.

As long as mining is sustainable, miners will continue to mine.

The main task that PoW solves in bitcoin is to ensure maximum stability and security of the network, besides, the transition to PoS will make bitcoin less predictable and deprive it of the status of digital gold. Perhaps the Greenpeace and Ripple initiative 'Change the code, not the climate' has more far-reaching plans under the guise of caring about the climate.

POW is basic for Bitcoin.
We have enough energy for Bitcoin network.
POW means energy, energy means value.

Why Bitcoin can't easily switch to PoS.

1.  Which version of PoS would it switch to?
     Ethereum PoS or Cardano PoS or Algorand PoS are all different codes with different designs.
     * Most PoW supporters are so clueless they don't even know that different PoS coins use different PoS code designs.*
    
2.  All Pruned Nodes will be lost in any conversion to PoS.
     Only Nodes with Full history back to the genesis blocks allowed.
     Let the arguments over the effects on security of losing all pruned nodes in a single update begin.

3.  Odds are trying to convert to PoS in a short time would cause major crashes or even lost coins.
     No major PoS coins uses that crap segwit code.
     Would all segwit code be pulled for a PoS conversion.

Expecting a community too clueless to even admit PoW is a major problem,
even after warnings of Proof of Waste have been around since 2013,
expecting them to turn on a dime and convert to a flawless PoS code design in anything less than 5 years is fool hardly.

Nope a BTC PoW to PoS conversion will fail,

BTC only hope of survival is becoming a token on robust well designed PoS networks like ethereum or cardano.

In theory, bitcoin can still move from POW to POS if there is consensus from miners. But once bitcoins go to POS it's like thousands of shitcoins out there so why do we have to destroy bitcoin. If you want to invest in POS coins, you can choose any alt currency on the market, bitcoin is different from all the rest and it is unique so don't try to make it trash like altcoins. Take a moment to compare the difference between POS and POW, you will understand why bitcoin should be POW.

You are asking for an honest debate in a forum that is 99.9999% btc cult nut jobs.
So expect a major PoW slanted reply to your question.

Facts
1. US & Europe governments are forewarning that a PoW mining ban is coming.
( Just as China did for years before they actually enacted it.)

The worldwide PoW mining ban is coming no matter what network security model is chosen by any coin community.
Expect at earliest a PoW ban in the US early 2023, at the latest 2025.

The usual nonsense speak that PoW is so great, is pure bullshit.
PoW mining is centralized, to a mere 4 mining pools with over 51%, has been for years.
4 people dominate all of BTC PoW security, lamest security model ever.
Only the ultra rich or those stealing electricity thru legal or illegal avenues can earn PoW mining.

While everyone with a brain , such as ethereum have moved to PoS, doge scheduling a move to PoS,
only btc PoW model, is still in the top 19 coins on CMK.
So to say PoW is dying out is not speculation, it has basically already happen, some are just too stupid to grasp it.

Once the US President uses an executive order to ban PoW, (expect Europe to announce their ban within 1 month of the US ban)
Bitcoin community will most likely have less than  6 months before the ban takes place. (If that , may only be 1 month depending on the energy status)
Considering how many years it took ethereum for the successful conversion to PoS,
expecting the BTC devs to make the transition from PoW to PoS in such a short time, without major security or network crash, is more than hopeful.

So the only real survival options that the BTC community will have due to their lack of planning, is not a conversion to proof of stake,
but an even funnier conversion to either a Wrapped Bitcoin Token on the Ethereum or Cardano Proof of Stake chains.


So the option of converting BTC to PoS , won't happen due to lack of planning by the btc devs and community.
The only survival option for BTC will be to become a token on the Proof of Stake networks of Ethereum or Cardano.
Oddly enough this would give btc a massive increase in transactions performance, energy efficiently, and access to smart contracts that at the present it will never achieve on its pathetic proof of waste network or ridiculous offchain networks.
or
The only alternative for the PoW fanatics , is to just let btc die , because they refuse to acknowledge the failure of Proof of Waste as a security model.
 


FYI:  
https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2022/10/cardano-ada-founder-on-why-pow-based-bitcoin-network-could-and-should-be-shut-down/

I have few POS coins before and tried to mint/stake with full node it generates me free coins but most of POS coins are not successful the price become worthless and I heard that the transaction from POS can be easily manipulated if one of the nodes is dishonest and I think their big issue is double-spend compared to POW algo.

Ethereum has evolved from semi-decentralised shitcoinery to a form of decentralised shitcoiney.
In lntellect honesty you cannot rule  out a passage to PoS transition , the outcome will be totally different from bitcoin.

Ain't in favor of Bitcoin moving from PoW to PoS if ever that happens in the future. If we need true decentralization, PoW is the best bet. I am not saying that Proof of Stake is bad, but it does have some positives such as energy consumption and transaction fees.

However, the bad side of PoS is that it's centralized. Now that Ethereum has moved to PoS, it's no longer a decentralized coin like Bitcoin is right now.

Like others said before me, PoS is more centralized than PoW. Why? Because the entry point is much higher. With bitcoin you need to buy a decent miner, but look at ETH. You need a lot of money invested to be able to stake it. 32 to be exact. That's almost 50k usd! You could solo mine bitcoin with less money invested.
People who cannot afford to stake alone use big pools and this makes all stakers centralized in 2 or 3 biggest pools. I've read that over 30% of ETH staking deposits is in one pool and this can grow in time.
You don't want this to happen with bitcoin.


You mean proof of stake, right?

They sure can move to POS. It just needs to go through the consensus of miners. At least 51% of miners need to provide their consent and remaining 49% can fork out. This is how it can be done.

However, considering how big the miner network is for bitcoin, I don't see it happening ever. At least not in our lifetime to be honest. Also moving to pos means the network will be more centralized and miners will loose their investments that they had done on their mining gears. So I doubt if a consensus will ever be reached.

Bitcoin can switch to proof-of-work if consensus is reached, I think. But since it won't ever be reached, it can't, there can only be a fork but Bitcoin will remain PoW. Why will it remain PoW? It's a more secure and less centralized option, the arguments were already noted in the thread. Since it's not merely a whim, I think people should try to push for the PoS. Take GPUs, for example, which are getting increasingly more power-hungry. They, let's be honest, are usually used for leisure, as not a lot of people do the kind of work that requires a very powerful power-hungry GPU. They do get more powerful with every generation, but that leads to increase in energy consumption. I don't see people calling to ban GPUs or ask gamers to play less demanding games and buy simpler gear.