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Topic: Why btc will die (Read 3958 times)

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
September 26, 2014, 11:33:28 AM
#75
1, bitcoin has no value, just a piece of junk number. it has no value like currency or gold, people buy it just for speculation.

all value is subjective, the fact that people are willing to trade goods for bitcoin show that you are wrong and it does have value.
your statement about people buying it only to speculate is backed by zero evidence.

2, bitcoin is unsafe and easily be stolen. If someone buy some coins for invest, it may disappear or hacked.

bitcoin is the safest asset in the world, for 120$ you can buy http://www.bitcointrezor.com/ and get the same security as the computer that is responsible for launching nuclear missiles.
it doesn't get anymore secure than this.

3,Gov will ban it, because it is anonymous and can not be controlled. People can use btc buy illegal goods like drugs and guns,  and may not pay tax. Or terrorists will use btc to fund terrorism activities.   

you are wrong, governments are not banning it, and even if they did there is no way to enforce such a ban.

4, Btc system is unsafe too, 51% attack will destroy it.

a 51% attack can't destroy bitcoin even if it happened.
it has never actually happened and can only happen in theory, there is a much higher chance that your government will freeze your bank account and steal your money like they did in Cyprus.

5, people does not need bitcoin, they can use dollars as well.

the dollar is already dead.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
the only way out is inflating the dollar to zero.

So I think btc will soon die.

go ahead, keep your paper money, remember we warned you when it becomes worthless.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1026
★Nitrogensports.eu★
September 26, 2014, 11:09:13 AM
#74

i would let it ride but cannot. supply of gold is finite. it is one of those elements created during a super nova.

Although gold has a fixed supply on earth, so far human has only mined a very small percentage of it near the surface of earth, if the price rise due to inflation, there will be more deep gold mines open (like those in china) to dig out more gold, and currently the gold is on the brink of crash due to oversupply

Gold has already declined by 10% from the highs of last year.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
September 25, 2014, 11:23:11 AM
#73

i would let it ride but cannot. supply of gold is finite. it is one of those elements created during a super nova.

Although gold has a fixed supply on earth, so far human has only mined a very small percentage of it near the surface of earth, if the price rise due to inflation, there will be more deep gold mines open (like those in china) to dig out more gold, and currently the gold is on the brink of crash due to oversupply

That would be the expected market reaction, if however gold price (I dont say it is) is maniputed then we would see a a shortage
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
September 25, 2014, 11:04:33 AM
#72

i would let it ride but cannot. supply of gold is finite. it is one of those elements created during a super nova.

Although gold has a fixed supply on earth, so far human has only mined a very small percentage of it near the surface of earth, if the price rise due to inflation, there will be more deep gold mines open (like those in china) to dig out more gold, and currently the gold is on the brink of crash due to oversupply
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
September 25, 2014, 07:29:38 AM
#71
Because I can not word it as eloquently as Erik Voorhees I'm hereby posting his letter to Peter Schiff from about 9 months ago.

Please read it, think about it, think about it some more and come back to explain how you still think 'btc will die'. 


Quote

An Open Letter to Peter Schiff A follow-up to the discussion on the Peter Schiff Show, December 2, 2013 (this has been emailed to Peter just now)

Dear Peter,
It was a privilege and an honor to be a guest on your radio show today. I’ve been a fan of yours for more than five years; you were one of the reasons I discovered Austrian economics (and, in turn, Bitcoin), and your eloquent explanation of consumption vs. production in an economy has guided my outlook of the world ever since. So thank you sincerely for what you’ve taught me, and for the opportunity to appear on your show. It was a really special moment for me.

While we had some valuable discussion today, I felt a follow-up was appropriate to better articulate my points. You’re right to be highly skeptical of such a new technology and monetary system, but please take the time to ensure your skepticism doesn’t blind you from what I humbly suggest is one of the most important tools for human freedom ever conceived.


The Fundamentals
First, Bitcoin must always be considered as two things: the payment network (Bitcoin) and the currency units (bitcoins). Condemnations of the latter can often be resolved with an understanding of the former. Satoshi should have named them differently to avoid this initial confusion.

When you suggest that bitcoins have “zero intrinsic value,” you are only considering the currency unit itself and ignoring the payment network. While I prefer the term “utility” over “intrinsic value” (because all value is subjective to the valuer), I may indeed admit that bitcoins, as currency units all by themselves, have no fundamental utility and are completely uninteresting. But – and this absolutely critical – the payment network has vast utility.

In fact, this network is probably one of the most valuable and consequential technologies currently on the planet. Some of us realized this a few years ago. Others are realizing it now. Many more will realize it in the future. The Bitcoin network is, fundamentally, a ledger of title controlled by no man. Ponder that for a moment. The transmission of value and ownership has thus just been severed from the State, not by impotent voting, but by the technological achievement of man.

Now, during the show, you agreed that perhaps this payment network has utility. So, if the network (Bitcoin) has utility, and only one currency is accepted on this network (bitcoins), and those bitcoins are scarce, then should not those units themselves command a market price? Who knows what that price should be, but there should be a price, no?

Any good that is useful and scarce will have a price (consider that air is useful but not scarce, and fish with three eyes are scarce but not useful, thus no price for either of them). Because the Bitcoin network is useful, and because only scarce bitcoin currency units are permitted on this network, the bitcoins themselves have a price. Indeed, they must have a price until the network is no longer useful, or the coins are no longer scarce.

This is not magic. It is not a Ponzi scheme or elaborate fraud. It’s just the market pricing something that it finds useful. As the network grows in usage, its utility subsequently grows, and thus scarce bitcoins appreciate further. Those who grabbed coins in the early days benefit hugely, just as those prospectors grabbing nuggets of gold out of the California foot hills did in the early days of the gold rush. Gold is not a pyramid scheme merely because early acquirers profit from later subsequent adoption and demand.


The Utility of Bitcoin and Competitors

So to adequately claim that bitcoins ought to have no price (which is the implicit assumption from your claim on national television that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme), you must demonstrate that the Bitcoin network has no utility. As someone who has transferred $100,000 worth of value to another person instantly in another country (on a Sunday when banks were closed, no less), I am confident that you will not succeed in this demonstration.

I believe that you will understand and agree with my above arguments if you objectively ponder them for a while. Your contention then moves to the following: that if Bitcoin (the network) can be replicated by anyone, it isn’t actually scarce at all and thus even though the network is valuable, the price of individual coins will fall toward zero as the system is replicated over and over by competitors. You would explain that while bitcoins are limited to 21 million units, anyone can create a competing crypto-currency and thus the number of possible crypto-currency units are unlimited, thus not scarce, and thus not fundamentally worth anything.

You made this argument several times on the show today. It is a fair point for you to raise, but please allow me to counter it.

Bitcoin, after all, cannot really be copied. True, the open-source code can be copied and the copier could release CopyCoin (indeed this is happening all the time). But, the copier cannot copy the infrastructure. The protocol layer is easily copied. The infrastructure layer is not. On Day 1 of Bitcoin, it had no infrastructure layer. I can tell you, as an entrepreneur in this space for the past few years, Bitcoin’s infrastructure layer is now substantial. Indeed, I am sitting in my office, and looking at my employees building this very infrastructure as I write this. Their work, and that of many thousands of others around the world, is not so easily replicated.

Let’s use an analogy, which you so often convincingly do when describing the absurdity of Fed policy or the counter-productive nature of various government programs. I believe the following is a very fair analogy.

Consider that language itself is a protocol – a set of rules for conveying information. Consider then that one could copy the English language, and change parts of it, and release it as English 2.0. However, why would anyone use it? Even if it had marginal improvements over traditional English, where is the infrastructure? Where are the vast tomes of literature written in English 2.0? Where are the speakers and writers and scholars of this new language? Where are the libraries and Wikipedias full of English 2.0 articles? How many newspapers are written and conveyed in English 2.0? How many Peter Schiff podcasts are disseminated in this new alternative? That infrastructure wouldn’t exist, and neither therefore, would the users. This is merely the natural, spontaneous consequence of network effect, and it applies to English as a protocol for language just as it applies to Bitcoin as a protocol for money.

Now, does the network effect mean English, or Bitcoin, can never be replaced? No. But it does mean it’d be extremely difficult in either case.
But let’s remember something. Even if a superior crypto-currency overcomes Bitcoin in the open market (certainly possible), does that make Bitcoin a failure or Ponzi scheme? Does that negate the utility bestowed by Bitcoin while the market still favors it? Consider that one can benefit from the Bitcoin network with zero or very low exposure to the currency price long term. This means a payment made with Bitcoin last year still accomplished its objective – value moved freely, the users benefited, even if a year later the system falls apart and goes to zero. Thus, there is real utility today even if the system doesn’t work next year. The assumption that Bitcoin will be around for eternity is not a prerequisite for benefiting from its utility in the present.


Mutual Respect for Market-Based Money

I think you will discover, upon reflection, that your concerns about Bitcoin boil down to the thesis that Bitcoin is a volatile, highly speculative, and non-conservative asset class. In this, I wholeheartedly agree. But if your arguments are claiming that the payment network itself is some kind of fraud – a Ponzi scheme undeserved of respect or even consideration – then I must take issue with that. The Bitcoin network is an utterly revolutionary technology. It separates money from the state, in a way that gold, unfortunately, has been unable to do.

When fully understood, Bitcoin should bring tears to the eyes of anyone who fights against the tyranny and ignorance of coercive governments and their monetary witch doctors. This is why thousands of people around the world have dedicated their lives to this campaign. We are carrying out this experiment without anyone’s permission. We’ll either fail, or change the world in a way that was inconceivable before this technology existed.
I wholly support your idea to make a gold-backed digital currency. Please do it. I’d love to be your first customer, because I love gold. But being in this business, seeing how the payments and banking and regulatory world works, I can tell you that your initiative will likely fail, either by self-immolation (GoldMoney severing inter-account payments), or by governmental take down (e-gold).

A monetary/payment system that relies on gold backing is reliant on the backer. It relies on a centralized, trusted party, to warehouse the gold and provide convertibility. This is the counter-party risk eliminated by Bitcoin.

If there is a centralized backer for any payment system, then the system will have to follow all government laws, or be shut down. To follow the laws, personal customer information must be known, meaning privacy is impossible. Transfer limits and strict terms of use will be imposed, meaning financial freedom is impossible. And have fun with the compliance costs. Have you noticed international banks dropping American customers around the world? It is due to this unfortunate dynamic. And then, if the stars align, and the gold-backed currency manages to grow big and become a successful global payments network, it’s not unreasonable to assume that governments will take it down anyway, because it would compete with fiat – from which great swaths of their power originates.

You cannot compete with fiat by having a competitor that is vulnerable to the guns of government. Bitcoin may not be perfectly immune, but it is highly resistant. Censorship of e-gold was easy. Censorship of Bitcoin will be… entertaining.

Regardless, if you’re honestly interested in trying that experiment again, I will help you and support that effort, because I recognize the value of precious metals as commodities and as money. Until such a system actually exists, I am humbly asking you to support our efforts in kind, and am humbly suggesting to you that bitcoins, while non-physical, are indeed real and indeed have real value, because they are the one currency accepted on the most revolutionary payment network known to mankind. This is not theory – it’s actually working for millions of dollars of payments every day. We’ve moved beyond the Mises textbook. We’re running in the open market.

While Bitcoin is still a highly-volatile experiment, it deserves more respect than dismissal as a Ponzi scheme, and regardless of whether you think the current price of a bitcoin unit is justified, you must acknowledge that this technology, broadly speaking, has utility both for both economic exchange and, more importantly, individual freedom.

When my grandparents ask me how to protect their wealth, I don’t tell them to buy bitcoins. I tell them to buy precious metals. When they ask me how to transfer value across distance, I don’t tell them to ship gold. I tell them to use Bitcoin. My hope in writing this letter is simply this – that perhaps you’ll come to see Bitcoin and gold as beautiful compliments and important tools in the advancement of free-market money – one long-standing, conservative, and physical, the other new, technologically and politically disruptive, and digital. One will not replace the other, but I believe both will come to replace fiat, and good riddance to that stuff.

In Liberty, Erik Voorhees
sr. member
Activity: 248
Merit: 252
September 25, 2014, 07:20:46 AM
#70
..while gold is fundamentally NOT useful.

gold is a very good conductor of electricity.


Silver is a better conductor.  Just need to keep it away from the elements since it tarnishes.

[Edit:] and copper for that matter.


I know we've all been brought up in a fiat/gold environment, and decades of habit are hard to overcome (I myself often do a mental calculation of what my current BTC holdings are in USD, and need to slap my own wrist for doing that), but if we start to think in BTC or whatever crypto rather than USD, then the conversion rate only matters when dealing with near term bricks and mortar transactions.

I first mined it at the GPU stage, then bought some, have also sold some out of need, and then after about 2 years finally got around to having my small website accept them (which remains as BTC and not cashed out to fiat).

One thing I wonder about a lot is this "Govenment wouldn't allow it', which reminds me of people who worshipped Greek gods or something.  If nobody worshiped them, then they'd cease to exist.  No need to fight them, or pay them to fight us...
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
September 25, 2014, 05:39:20 AM
#69
1, bitcoin has no value, just a piece of junk number. it has no value like currency or gold, people buy it just for speculation.

2, bitcoin is unsafe and easily be stolen. If someone buy some coins for invest, it may disappear or hacked.

3,Gov will ban it, because it is anonymous and can not be controlled. People can use btc buy illegal goods like drugs and guns,  and may not pay tax. Or terrorists will use btc to fund terrorism activities.  

4, Btc system is unsafe too, 51% attack will destroy it.

5, people does not need bitcoin, they can use dollars as well.

So I think btc will soon die.

Your opinion seems to be based on incorrect information, I would suggest doing some more research before posting again, here's a few corrections with numbers corresponding to the numbered statements in your post:

1. The value of bitcoin is equal to or greater than the value invested in it. What are dollars, euros, or other currencies backed by? If you give value to dollars and other fiat currencies, then you must give value to bitcoin, because bitcoin has been bought with those currencies.

2. Bitcoin is not unsafe and certainly not easily stolen. Credit and debit cards are unsafe and can be stolen and used in fraud. Please elaborate on how bitcoin can be "easily stolen", because I can't even begin to imagine how you would crack a bitcoin private key?

3. You are confused, bitcoin is not anonymous. And terrorists and drug or gun dealers are doing what they do for a long time with fiat currencies. If a government bans it, it would be for other reasons, and if they did, I would buy more, because look what a government ban has done in the past for the price of liquor and marijuana.

4. 51% attack is a very well-known threat which has been prepared for and can be prevented.

5. With the current systems in place, dollars and other fiat currencies are no match for bitcoin. Bitcoin is cheaper, faster, and more efficient as a currency in a global economy. Dollars and other fiat currencies are dependent on banks, credit/debit card, and remittance companies to keep them safe and transfer value to others. Bitcoin is independent of those institutions, and does not need banks or credit/debit card, and remittance companies to transfer value, so all the fees you pay to the bank, visa/mastercard, and western union to keep and send your money disappear.


That being said, I will admit that Bitcoin, which is the first cryptocurrency ("v1.0") does have it's faults and challenges which are being answered with new and improved cryptocurrency solutions, just like Microsoft Windows 3.0 grew into Windows 8, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies will evolve to meet their challenges, getting better and better with time.

To the OP, "bitcoinwilldie", if you are not simply a troll posting uninformed rants for attention, then try to read up a little more, get more involved and do your research, there's a whole lot going on right now, and besides learning something, you might be able to make some extra money. Don't take your opinions from others, learn on your own. And if you still have well thought-out arguments and not just uninformed rants, I would love to hear them.

legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
TRUMP IS DOING THE BEST! MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
September 25, 2014, 05:02:49 AM
#68
electronic money is the illuminati collective's wet dream for total control.
legendary
Activity: 1001
Merit: 1005
September 25, 2014, 04:56:53 AM
#67
Help me out here. If bitcoin has no value, how would someone buy drugs with it and why would government ban it?
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1010
Borsche
September 25, 2014, 04:45:32 AM
#66
Why I think the OP will die:

because he is a biological creature with a limited life span, so he will die well before bitcoin does.

And that is a fact.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333
September 25, 2014, 02:54:51 AM
#65
1, bitcoin has no value, just a piece of junk number. it has no value like currency or gold

3,People can use btc buy illegal goods like drugs and guns,  and may not pay tax. Or terrorists will use btc to fund terrorism activities.   

Isn't that quite a contradiction? If it has no value how can it be used to buy stuff?
legendary
Activity: 888
Merit: 1000
Monero - secure, private and untraceable currency.
September 25, 2014, 02:53:25 AM
#64
Someone ban OP?
newbie
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
September 24, 2014, 09:12:33 PM
#63
actually, i am confused. everyone has its ending. we need it cause we mining this. but it is nothing to those who is not professional in this area. it seems not like fiat currency that we have to buy thing with it and gov will not cancel fiat currency cause btc. and its price will slump and jump in one night. it is a speculation seems like in stock.
full member
Activity: 143
Merit: 100
September 24, 2014, 08:28:44 PM
#62
Congratulations OP. You're the first arsehole I've put on my ignore list. Be proud. I think you'll be the first of many.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 503
September 24, 2014, 08:21:48 PM
#61
Bitcoin has value because things have the value that people give to them
newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
September 24, 2014, 08:19:24 PM
#60
Bitcoin DOES have value, just like the dollar does. We give it value, are you dense? If many people say "yes, this is worth money" we give it value. THATS how it works. So that's a horrible first point. The government wont ban it because it CANT. It may become discouraged, but they cant ban it. How would they even do that.
hero member
Activity: 782
Merit: 1000
September 24, 2014, 08:17:29 PM
#59
1, bitcoin has no value, just a piece of junk number. it has no value like currency or gold, people buy it just for speculation.

2, bitcoin is unsafe and easily be stolen. If someone buy some coins for invest, it may disappear or hacked.

3,Gov will ban it, because it is anonymous and can not be controlled. People can use btc buy illegal goods like drugs and guns,  and may not pay tax. Or terrorists will use btc to fund terrorism activities.   

4, Btc system is unsafe too, 51% attack will destroy it.

5, people does not need bitcoin, they can use dollars as well.

So I think btc will soon die.

You are not the first and won't be the last one who says something like this.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1007
September 24, 2014, 08:14:25 PM
#58
I do not believe
btc will die.
you say btc will die, because price goes down btc?

legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
September 24, 2014, 08:04:04 PM
#57
your nickname looks really impartial
it does not worth to answer you
sr. member
Activity: 374
Merit: 250
September 24, 2014, 07:36:08 PM
#56
bitcoin wont die. you cant kill the blockchain. governments can try to stop exchanges, bt those are just businesses.. not bitcoin.

once people realise that bitcoin is not a business and that they should not be reliant on businesses, they will see why bitcoin is so different compared to bank notes or credit cards.


It is, in theory, possible to "kill" the blockchain if few enough people have interest in mining, then the network could essentially "stop" however this would be very unlikely.

The fact that people have always valued bitcoin, even before exchanges people devoted a lot of resources into mining only because they saw value.
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