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Topic: Why Dash fails decentralization (Read 4178 times)

legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
May 11, 2016, 08:20:44 AM
#69
Hate me for this but this is where shadowcash steps in...

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but one of the Monero Devs deanonymized shadowcash already.

https://shnoe.wordpress.com/2016/02/11/de-anonymizing-shadowcash-and-oz-coin/

Although, if we are talking just about decentralization, shadowcash is probably more decentralized than dash--it would be hard not to be unless we're comparing it to Ripple.
Thisnis old news dude... The fix was fixed...

Didn't realize anyone had stuck with it after that, my bad. Though still not sure what sdc has to with dash's decentralization problem--
full member
Activity: 200
Merit: 100
May 11, 2016, 08:10:32 AM
#68
Hate me for this but this is where shadowcash steps in...

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but one of the Monero Devs deanonymized shadowcash already.

https://shnoe.wordpress.com/2016/02/11/de-anonymizing-shadowcash-and-oz-coin/

Although, if we are talking just about decentralization, shadowcash is probably more decentralized than dash--it would be hard not to be unless we're comparing it to Ripple.
Thisnis old news dude... The fix was fixed...
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
May 11, 2016, 12:28:24 AM
#67
Hate me for this but this is where shadowcash steps in...

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but one of the Monero Devs deanonymized shadowcash already.

https://shnoe.wordpress.com/2016/02/11/de-anonymizing-shadowcash-and-oz-coin/

Although, if we are talking just about decentralization, shadowcash is probably more decentralized than dash--it would be hard not to be unless we're comparing it to Ripple.
full member
Activity: 200
Merit: 100
May 10, 2016, 07:47:40 PM
#66
Hate me for this but this is where shadowcash steps in...
legendary
Activity: 1779
Merit: 1100
May 10, 2016, 06:18:17 PM
#65
You don't get my point :

Another shit thread from Trolleros.
YOU WILL NEVER SWALLOW DASH MARKETCAP! For fuck sake NEVER! Your coin is dying because of your fucking community of morons...

Once again: Try to make something positive for what you like, and stop talking about Dash all day long.




And for your title it should say : "Why I think Dash fails decentralization".
Objectivity kid, Objectivity.

Lebubar, this guy is just a grown up in his parent's basement with no life, nothing more to do than create and feed this loser threads in bitcointalk. It is not worth your time.

Noone cares  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
May 10, 2016, 05:43:39 PM
#64
http://dashmasternode.org/

To let people make their own opinion.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
May 10, 2016, 03:53:05 PM
#63
You don't get my point :

Another shit thread from Trolleros.
YOU WILL NEVER SWALLOW DASH MARKETCAP! For fuck sake NEVER! Your coin is dying because of your fucking community of morons...

Once again: Try to make something positive for what you like, and stop talking about Dash all day long.




And for your title it should say : "Why I think Dash fails decentralization".
Objectivity kid, Objectivity.

I also made another topic that fits your logic.  Tongue

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14472374
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
May 10, 2016, 03:09:49 PM
#62
You don't get my point :

Another shit thread from Trolleros.
YOU WILL NEVER SWALLOW DASH MARKETCAP! For fuck sake NEVER! Your coin is dying because of your fucking community of morons...

Once again: Try to make something positive for what you like, and stop talking about Dash all day long.




And for your title it should say : "Why I think Dash fails decentralization".
Objectivity kid, Objectivity.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
May 10, 2016, 02:09:56 PM
#61
Decentralizationthis :




Centralizationthis :



Without mentioning, that without GUI more than 90% of all XMR must be in Polo Smiley great decentralization example kid!
How many node Monero have Huh  (from https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html)
Total nodes: 176 - Last updated: 24 minutes ago (just lol : another great decentralization example kid!)

Another shit thread from Trolleros.
YOU WILL NEVER SWALLOW DASH MARKETCAP! For fuck sake NEVER! Your coin is dying because of your fucking community of morons...

Once again: Try to make something positive for what you like, and stop talking about Dash all day long.

You didn't read or understand the OP.

Dash's failure at trustless decentralization is the test case that formed my understanding of why trustless decentralization is necessary for any cryptocurrency to succeed at being disruptive. Dash's failure is that it built a centralizing flaw that aggregates coins to those who run nodes and layering power functions (votes, fees, privacy, etc...) onto these nodes.

Dash's nodes have two major weaknesses in design: first, they are pay based, or paynodes, which means that they can be bought and sold. The second flaw in design is that they collect fees, which means node holders collect money that in turn can be used to buy more nodes that in turn can collect more fees, and so on and so forth. Where this especially becomes troubling is that dash's launch produced 2 million coins in 2 days and this initial distribution cannot be verified to be fairly distributed, which means the resources to buy 2000 nodes (more than half of current existing at this writing) were made available to a few lucky guys who happened to be mining at that right moment--considering this is 30% of current distribution and given that they could have bought 2000 or more masternodes since that scheme was introduced, the number of masternodes these initial miners could have may be considerably more than 30%, and considering that this control can aggregate over time, it illustrates why these systems need to be trustlessly verified.

I apologize for all the numbers just thrown at you, but lets make it simpler, since the masternode system collects the revenue that determines its degree of centralization, and that centralization can't be verified to any statistical certainty, we should assume that it is increasingly trending towards a traditional oligarchy or monarchy, where one or a few have undue power over the entire system--how it behaves, the distribution and security of its benefits.

We can assume this model fails at decentralization if we follow the principle that a cryptosystem should be trustlessly verified--it is imperative that if you want to break away from the shackles of a central power and from the enablers of these systems, you can not get there following the same old trusted rules, mathematics have given us the tools to undermine and outperform these old world systems, but we will never get there by using systems that forgo the technology and embrace the old world trust model in a vain attempt to disrupt those standards by embracing them.


As for those graphs and there lack of any useful information for determining real-ownership, the implications of a large control of nodes to a few people (no matter what hosting service they run or in what country), or even redistribution on exchanges is back into the hands of a few instaminers at a lower cost, which therefore aggregates more control--two words:





legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
May 10, 2016, 01:23:42 PM
#60
Decentralizationthis :




Centralizationthis :



Without mentioning, that without GUI more than 90% of all XMR must be in Polo Smiley great decentralization example kid!
How many node Monero have Huh  (from https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html)
Total nodes: 176 - Last updated: 24 minutes ago (just lol : another great decentralization example kid!)

Another shit thread from Trolleros.
YOU WILL NEVER SWALLOW DASH MARKETCAP! For fuck sake NEVER! Your coin is dying because of your fucking community of morons...

Once again: Try to make something positive for what you like, and stop talking about Dash all day long.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
May 07, 2016, 10:38:44 AM
#59
Thanks for the bump, macrochip. The argument on dash's superior marketing versus monero's superior design highlights very divergent methods to coin development, while dash's method allows for them to buy soda machines and girls in bikini's to further its cause, it still hasn't paid for any cryptographers to show how their coin centralizes itself into an unfair and fragile design that governments (or their own leadership) can exploit. Strange that I have to point it out and that no one in their community wants or can address it as a problem. Monero may not get the notice of the noobs, but its design is superior and those who wish to market it, and even write about it here, do so out of love for the technology and a desire to see it succeed based on merit and not hype.

Even when they wanna talk about Monero (or so they claim) in their own subreddit they end up bitching and moaning about Dash instead of trying to improve their shitty, failed product. By design or stupidity? You decide:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/4i6147/advertising_for_monero/
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
April 27, 2016, 12:46:50 AM
#58
how many bitmonero, bmr, mro, xmr monero were cripplemined the first 3 months?  

the question they don't want to answer.  

Ask an objective question (in which case you can answer it from a block explorer, etc.) or might as well just make up your own answer.


I really thought you are an expert in making own assumptions and giving your own answers after all that bullshit i read from you on dash ... how often did you tell us eduffield has mined almost every xcoin within the instamine days? *facepalm* (or are you in blockchain analysis now, and can prove any of the "instamine scam" - "eduffield mined almost 2 mio coins" bullshit?!)

I really hate people throwing shit, and then if the shit hits the fan, and comes back to their own face, they just say, "hey that's something totally different" LOL

Questions:

How many dash were mined in the first two hours?

How many xmr were mined in the first two hours?

How many dash were mined in the first two days?

How many xmr were mined in the first two days?

How many dash were mined in first two months?

How many xmr were mined in first two months?

How much emissions were cut from dash's total supply?

How much emissions were cut from xmr's total supply?

Do the early mining totals potentially affect dash's power centralization (yes/no)? And if so, to what potential degree?

Do the early mining totals potentially affect xmr's power centralization (yes/no)? And if so, to what potential degree?



My guess is no dasher will answer these questions with just the numbers filled in--they will attempt to skew and spin, but never answer in a straight forward and direct manner (if at all).
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 26, 2016, 01:11:22 PM
#57
Even without Dash's instamine and later emission cut, Masternodes are trusted third parties and thus a security no-no.

Well summarized.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
April 21, 2016, 11:39:03 PM
#56
chinese miners are true freedom fighters ... which of you in the west would risk your necks to run a quasi-legal operation under a communist, totalitarian regime? They chop heads off in china, the chinese miners probably have a stronger ethos for freedom than a lot of the part-timers in the west who pay lip-service to freedom and then hand fat checks to the corrupt governments and banksters while they get the shaft from them.

Bitcoin mining has gravitated to the strongest hands, just as it was designed to be ... you cant truly know freedom until you have truly known oppression.

It may be true, but it is still not trustless decentralization.

Power corrupts absolutely and it will be no different an outcome if the power of mining is vested in too few people's hands.

Every few days or so I read this as a reminder of what this is about. It's nice that it's short and there's no mention of price or investment opportunities or what coin is set to pump--just an idea developed in mind of the technology at hand. You can't kill ideas, but you can certainly corrupt them.

http://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/crypto-anarchy.html





sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 21, 2016, 03:30:02 PM
#55
chinese miners are true freedom fighters ... which of you in the west would risk your necks to run a quasi-legal operation under a communist, totalitarian regime? They chop heads off in china, the chinese miners probably have a stronger ethos for freedom than a lot of the part-timers in the west who pay lip-service to freedom and then hand fat checks to the corrupt governments and banksters while they get the shaft from them.

Bitcoin mining has gravitated to the strongest hands, just as it was designed to be ... you cant truly know freedom until you have truly known oppression.

It may be true, but it is still not trustless decentralization.

Power corrupts absolutely and it will be no different an outcome if the power of mining is vested in too few people's hands.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
April 21, 2016, 01:48:22 PM
#54
Tok you can't assert things into being true.

"Of the coin supply that forms that collateral, around a few hundred are thought to be in the hands of so called "early adopters" or "instaminers" to use your term"

That is pure chimerical speculation on your part--no one but the instaminers know for sure what happened to those coins. Some may have sold all of them, a bit of them, none of them, who knows?

And of course everything turns into "look decentralization" because you rolled an assertion snowball down a hill and let its momentum do all the work.

Also, another fact you continual ignore is that thanks to the collection nodes, whatever was instamined could be used to gain more coins, even if masternodes don't account for all voting, the coins they collect could very well be used to determine the vote from total coins.

And again, any market argument that hinges on what's best for the coin misses that good intentions, or the appearance of good intentions, doesn't mean bad things aren't being done behind the scenes, though I guess if Evan suddenly bought a Lear, no one in dash would complain, which is really, really strange, but whatever. My point is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and claiming that somehow someway management will do the best thing represents one of those fallacies that sparked cryptocurrencies. Or are you missing that dash doesn't hire cryptographers with those votes, but finds more ways to advertise to noobs--so I guess a steady supply of fresh meat would be fine by you, not necessarily healthy for the actual functioning coin, but good for those holding the most nodes (my guess is you don't think people will notice this aspect in all your BS).
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 21, 2016, 01:47:26 PM
#53
Quote

The salient distinction is that mining influence in Bitcoin has nothing to do with how many tokens you own. And mining expenditure is ongoing whereas staked masternodes are only deposited once.

We've already explained this before. I am not going to explain again why staking is not secure.

Mining influence in DASH has nothing to do with how many tokens you own either. Miners govern the coin in exactly the same way as other PoW coins - they can fork a chain at any time.

Masternodes/DGBB create an additional governance layer, providing, right now, funds for all sorts of beneficial projects directly from the blockchain.

Nobody is saying it's perfect, finished or a replacement for mining. It is, however, a good working solution to the governance issues and decision making malaise that stunt the growth of other coins.

Masternodes can corrupt the security of the InstantX and the anonymity.

Evolution is building more corruptible features on masternodes.

Masternodes concentrate the coin supply to those who own the masternodes by paying them a dividend (up to 50% per annum according a chart that was on the Dash website last year), and the masternode has no significant ongoing cost, as the stake deposit is only made once.

The decentralization of the mining is irrelevant when the coin supply is largely controlled by those who instamined and have been concentrating their percentage of the coin supply, thus they can force any protocol change they want, because ultimately it is payers who control which protocol they sign their transactions to.

I don't have time to get in a detailed debate with you, but rest assured I can destroy all your arguments when I am ready to. That time is coming... just wait...
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
April 21, 2016, 01:25:42 PM
#52

I would say decentralized means that the power structure (whether it be mining in coins like Monero or Bitcoin, or in nodes like dash) is distributed enough that one party can't determine the outcome of votes

When you say "power structure", in Dash the power structure is exactly where it is with every other coin:

 - with mining majority (and their choice of what protocol run run)
 - with commercial stakeholders (and their choice of whether to support the coin)

The "outcome of votes" as regards those executed by master nodes affects neither of those two. But then Dash has one additional "power structure" that other coins do not:

 - a monthly budget that comprises 10% of the block reward

That gets spent on proposals to further the interests and development of the coin. The ENTIRE coin supply counts towards the execution of that budget spend - not just people with masternodes. Anyone with the smallest amount of Dash can have their holding invested in Dash's reserve market and potentially influence that spend.

Right now, there are around 3700 collateralised masternodes. Of the coin supply that forms that collateral, around a few hundred (node's worth) are thought to be in the hands of so called "early adopters" or "instaminers" to use your terms. So even in this minority stockholding aspect of governance, they are well outnumbered and even if they weren't, they could still not overturn the POW majority, still not overturn the commercial stakeholding majority and still not overturn the economic majority who actually endorse Dash's value in markets. (Which is why they have to act in the coin's best aggregate interests - not their own -  if they want to protect their investment).

Finally, although I've argued that the 10% block reward budget governance is not an executive force in terms of technical and commercial protocols, it does do one other thing which is of huge strategic importance. That is to focus the voice of the coin holding population - whoever they may be - in such a way that market observers can judge the merits of their development priorities.

Whatever the outcome and however that voting population is made up, that is a huge dollop of transparency right there which other coins don't have because everyone can monitor the aspirations, concerns, priorities and achievements of the coin holding population who are putting their money where there mouth is right out in the open.

legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
April 21, 2016, 12:47:18 PM
#51
we are arguing: can you verify trustlessly that dash is decentralized.

Can you verify, trustlessly, that any coin is decentralized?

While you're at it, define 'trustlessly' and 'decentralized', since they're your favorite words (apart from instamine).

As concepts that we're aiming to achieve, I would say decentralized means that the power structure (whether it be mining in coins like Monero or Bitcoin, or in nodes like dash) is distributed enough that one party can't determine the outcome of votes without discussion and consensus--the mere appearance of discussion and consensus hardly counts, so let me dull that sword before you even get it out.

Trustlessly, I would define as the ability to review the functions of a coin (whether it be privacy, governance, speed, ect.) within a statistical tolerance level that accounts for risk in the form of time and level of risk.

While no current coin can claim either of these as a 100%, either or metric, the point I've been maintaining is that dash, due to the instamine and the masternode scheme will never be able to achieve these to any great degree without being able to identify each node and coin to a person and trace that history throughout time.

So here's a question for you, can you show me without the aid of trust that dash's nodes aren't in the hands of the instaminers or that those instaminers redistributed their coins?

I know someone in dashland will throw up a graphic that shows things in motion as they done over and over again, but getting in front of this so I don't have to make another post, that information can't show any more than that coins were exchanged, whether it is between the same people or new owners is a matter of pointless speculation.

Now Monero and Bitcoin and a few other coins are working to solve this, but will dashers be willing to give up their masternodes or identify themselves to show an honest redistribution? Those are the only ways in which to do it, but I'm sure someone will spout off about what we don't know about the future and some fairy dust statements, and my reply will be, "There is a way to do it today and you aren't doing it (just as you didn't do it two days after the relaunch and exasperated it with a reduction in coin emissions), so it isn't a matter of technology, like with POW mining issues, it's a matter of the community not having the will to do something about an obvious problem. At the end of the day I made my point. I think it's weird that a community that has such a shady past wants trust to be their biggest claim to the promise of decentralization.
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
April 21, 2016, 10:50:19 AM
#50
we are arguing: can you verify trustlessly that dash is decentralized.

Can you verify, trustlessly, that any coin is decentralized?

While you're at it, define 'trustlessly' and 'decentralized', since they're your favorite words (apart from instamine).
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