Topic: Why do most known experts and widly-respected posters prefer PoW over PoS & PoI? (Read 1930 times)

+1
this is my idea: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10660505

hope it helps

What that payment is for, in the long run, is securing the network.  

The miners contribute directly to security in a PoW network, but the network still isn't secured if there aren't a meaningfully large number of full nodes available.  

And so far, both PoW and PoS schemes have failed to broadly reward people for keeping a full node up.  Somebody who does that, deserves a full share of that payment regardless of their hashing power or capital invested.  

So, if you want a protocol to survive in the long run, I think it's vital to find a way to provide an incentive for people to keep nodes up - reliably, not just if they win some hugely biased lottery (that they have no chance at without million-dollar investments) and get a chance to form a block.  

I think a coinbase transaction every block with fifty outputs - one fairly-big one of maybe half the award for the miner, and forty-nine others distributed semi-randomly to full nodes that happen to be up at that very minute - would be a good idea regardless of whether you determine block formation via PoW or PoS.

Hmmmm....  Now that I think of it, I have an idea .....  

Will respons short on this. The Magi Proof of Interest is not an experiment with loans or for securing the network.
Its a nice campaign for giving back some extra coins to the great community.
Made possible by generous donation from somebody who wants to remain anonymous.
This anonymous person appreciates the process of the young digital currency (Magi)
Magi team works very hard and has respect for all other currencies.

The Proof of Mining campaign, which will be launched shortly has more to do with securing the network.
I dont want to go off topic here but had to respond briefly to clarify.
Thanks for reading.
(Nice topic Dewdeded)

It seems what they call is not a way to secure the network, it's just some crazy experiment with loans or something like that.

I think in this topic this should be intended as proof-of-importance, which is used at NEM.


Interesting, what I know about proof-of-activity is more like this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zDlGZn7sICIA8bUPhe6jPPzGOxA4YgTgi6J4XilFpgs/edit

What coblee described it sounds to me like the proof-of-transaction (Fluttercoin) and proof-of-importance (NEM) schemes. I dislike these two.

NXT example is wrong.  At most they only had 5% of the total supply on BTER and the hacker returned most of them.

It's at lot easier to get 51% of hash power than it is to buy / steal 51% of a PoS coin.   Most people in cryptos are holding to the moon, so for you to get 51% of a coin you would have to create thousands of millionaires (spend $billions of dollars).   Whereas some mining pools, before they split up, had essentially came close to attaining 51% - if you can get 51% with computers in basements, all you probably need is a $50 million compound to get 51% of Bitcoin's hash.    

See ur other post. Once we have determined reality, we can talk more  

Pure POS only for the coin. POW mining comes on top for reward distribution. They are inside the transition process, was pure SCRYTP mining before, POW to secure the blockchain.

Many altcoin scams have burned the POW-to-POS transition by doing a week of mining, a week of pumping, some more days of dumping and then folding down all operations. That has caused some serious trust deficits in the markets.

At least if Bitcoin goes POS one day, nobody can say that mining periode was to short.

Just replied to a similar question in another thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10981889

Basically because not that many people stake their coins, they leave them on an exchange or the leave them offline. So, if a major exchange gets hacked and 5 or 10% of the available coin supply gets stolen, this can be more than enough coins to do a 51% attack, since not everyone/most people don't leave their wallets staking all the time. This vulnerability (related to centralized exchanges) just doesn't exist for PoW coins. The fairly recent hacks and thefts of Mintpal/Vericoin and Bter/NXT are real world examples of this.

what ever it is you take it must be damn good shit.
mintcoin 24h volume a whopping $ 207 of worldwide trade (not only the local corner store)
=dead!

I'm interested in this, but I don't see how BOINC has the properties needed to secure a cryptocurrency.  I think a lot of people saw possible problems with it and stayed away.  How did Gridcoin manage the problems involved? 

First, a lot of BOINC problems are linear (fastest computer wins ALL the time, rather than in proportion to speed).

Second, it doesn't usually happen, as I understand it, that everybody is working on the SAME problem - some get easier and some get harder. 

Third, it makes their servers a bottleneck and a vulnerability - people have to contact these servers to get a new problem every round, the block chain dies if the servers ever go down, and somebody could arrange to get "easy" problems if the operators collude or can be bribed. 

I'm not saying there's no way for it to work; I just don't know how to engineer around these issues.

Mintcoin was full pow then a hybrid and now full pos.  Seems to be doing great.

success depends on many more factors than just how the reward is calculated. i still think that a pow system which calculates something useful can succeed.

but:
 - primecoin seems useless (primenumbers? why)
 - boinc / seti@home: i would not base a currency on another project as i think it would just mean that the success of the currency depends on the other project.

POS/POI: i mainly dont like it because i dont believe in its security model. with pow i understand that work has to be done. this cant be faked. if pos proofes itself (bigger marketcap for a longer timeframe) i change my mind. i dont understand mony well, so i cant say much about the pos implications for its value. though i have read one good post about it in this thread.

dpos: i think it may work from a security point of view. but i dont want centralzation and atm DPOS is nothing more that marketing folks which get paid by the blockchain. so i dislike it.

Market does not accept meaningfull work that actually does some worthy results, that was exactly the goal of utilising BOINC (Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing is an open source middleware system for volunteer and grid computing) in GRC Gridcoin. Daily trade volume like thirty bucks, rejected.

I'm a miner at heart, but having said that I am currently using Peercoin [PPC] as an experiment to see what is my best coarse of action moving forward.

Of coarse my circumstances will vary from others, but in my case I think both POW and POS with this particular coin can be beneficial to me in  financial gains.

It is fairly hard to mine with its current difficulty but the block reward payouts equate to around $27 to make that in POS you would need to hold around 9000 [PPC] that figure is just a guess based on watching the rewards of POS on their block exchange, so that would mean investing just under $3000 to get the same value of a minted block via POW of coarse these amounts could vary A LOT depending on luck and difficulty changes.

So it seems to me that rather than invest $3000 in PPC and hold for POS which starts after a 30 day period and can run up to 90 days, I may as well invest some of my $3000 in more mining hardware either by way of purchase or rent, and go fishing for the 82+[PPC] block rewards via POW mining.

To complement me in my undertaking here I have created a mining pool, and a dice site for [PPC] to see what is right and what is wrong.

I shall update when I have a definitive answer, my end game through out this experiment is to eventually have both running I will re-invest some of my mined POW rewards back into hardware, and the rest leave in my wallet minting under POS.

That's the plan but as we know in the world of crypto the plans never work out as they should.

Non-PoW consensus schemes are not inherently less "wasteful" than PoW at all.

For example, consider someone staking to get the seigniorage from a block on PoS. That person wins the block reward with essentially zero or trivial cost (compared to PoW).

Now that person takes those profits to demand goods and services bounded by the value of that block reward.

Are we supposed to somehow believe that the marginally-increased economic power of the PoS staker in question has zero environmental footprint and will consume no additional energy and/or resources?

The PoW miner on the other hand, in a competitive mining environment, should converge on making a standard economic rate of return in profit, having consumed energy and capital to achieve the seigniorage. Those fixed and variable costs diminish the PoW miner's ability to consume additional resources as a result of achieving the block reward.

We could certainly drill down deeper into analyzing and modeling the particulars of how these profit incentives work out vis-a-vis increased marginal consumption, but it's pretty apparent that there really isn't any significant difference in kind between these two scenarios from a ecological / resource-consumption point of view. And if you want to expand this view to fiat currencies, the reality is far bleaker than anything a PoW system could ever dream of with respect to driving increased marginal consumption of resources.

Proof of Importance

''POI is short for "Proof-of-Importance". It is a consensus algorithm at the core of the NEM software. The higher your importance, the higher your chance to be allowed to calculate a block (and harvest the fees inside that block). POI adjusts your importance depending on how many transactions you make, with whom you make them and a number of other factors. If you don't do any transactions POI will set your importance based on your balance only (it is then similar to proof-of-stake).''

-http://nem.io/faq.html

The experts understand that PoW is exactly what the name says: a proof that a certain amount of work has been done. Just like Gold the vast amount is dug up for no other reason as to be buried again in some vault. If you dig a ditch you can proof your work too and want to get paid.

PoS is nothing new people have been proofing there stake on the stock market for hundreds of years. The issue with PoS coins is that there will be forever new once popping up at no significant disadvantage to existing PoS coins on the market. It will be endlessly diluted. With PoW this is not the case as new once can not compete with existing PoW coins due to inflation and other things.

This issues will sort itself out with time. The more time passes the more understand this, not only the experts.

Fast forward and you will  see: PoW more proven work has been done and with PoS, more coins on the market.
With PoW coins you have to look what the individual coins potential is to do "work", some are handicapped.

Proof-of-Play is based on the human spending time in front of the computer.

CKGhas an about $400k market cap, and it would be about #50 in coinmarketcap if it was listed (it has only been listed ingame, for 5 months now).

Others - worth discussing?:

Delegated Proof of Stake
http://bitshares.org/intro-to-delegated-proof-of-stake/
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/TITAN

Proof of Activity by coblee
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/proof-of-activity-proposal-102355

if you find anything let me know...I'm a legal miner in the usa...need a 'toy' miner of some sort.....to keep the revenue stream (tekcoin irs..sure i made 100 usd this month here is my taxable income of 25 bucks...my line for 2017) I'm over the hump on this equip depreciation wise..but may as well run it out for the last 2 years or so as applied towards regular taxes owed..this year i'm also golden..no issues...just enough equip vs what i likely will make vs price......heh lucky again it looks like even if the price pops last 1/2 of the year

by the by because of equip purchases in 2013 (jupiter at end of year Oct) and even at high coin then and also titans (again Nov not till end of year) because bitcoin and ltc tanked
i did ok on this all...got right now 70.1% of all the equip deductions i'm entitled to already i could with 2 yrs to go after this year...so....and again due to what  i mined when i mined in the year (accumulate) vs the price.....well my cpa says I'm a farmer and the crops sucked....so looks like this year also i won' t pay any tax on what i mined and still keep the 25% off equip train going......not bad ..just lucky but the balance has worked so far

would rather have seen 1000 usd btc and 20 buck ltc and just happily paid my taxes and that would have been fine but got lucky i had to file as a biz due to bank error
and to protect self (long story fixed in a day SEC involved...but really really really good i had the legal biz as virtual miner as of IRS guidelines of 2013)

no next year i HOPE btc ltc goes up (holding) so no miners for home use anymore so....not really gonna be an issue on IRS and mining anymore

but a baby miner or two might be nice to show I'm a trying heh hey IRS home miner .this is what i can get now .this is what i can mine .notice my home biz aspect and 100 amp service?

so yeah any scrypt miners china or otherwise that actually exist let us know here.....but it seems doubtful ...even if they started such production data hall or otherwise imho it would
be 7 months to get them out the door and into the world....with these titans (see link below) I will look like a genius and will delete all doubtful posts on bitcointalk to back up my boasts at that time

my setup below 2 knc titan scrypt miners going to doorstop status the knc Jupiter 550gh on the bottom shelf is 'retired' to holding the mining table to earth....ie paperweight

http://lostgonzo.imgur.com/