Topic: Why do you all ignore alternative tech on Bitcoin? (Read 600 times)

Someone creates a digital/physical art.
They create a token for it and sell that token to someone for a lot of money.
2 days later the artist decides that they didn't earn enough money from the first sale so they create another token and sell it to someone else.
A third party downloads the same art from the internet and creates their own token from that art and sells it to someone else making money that way.

So yeah NFTs have a lot of "utility"

The ugly truth is that so far there has not been even single real world problem that tokens solved. It's true that the market is big and a lot of money is changing hands (and being laundered through tokens) but they still haven't solved anything.
They are simply used to raise funds and nothing else. And fund raising can be done through many other methods.

The problem is that the real question is never answered by avoiding it altogether and focusing on irrelevant matters such as the market size, how expensive a token was sold, the profit, quality of the art, ...

I wouldn’t consider myself extremely heavily involved in NFTs, or a expert.. I have just done it for fun for a long time..

I have only ever used Bitcoin for NFTs, and more recently a little bit on Doge (same tech just cheaper, less serious)..
What grinds my gears a bit is people porting them FROM Bitcoin TO ETH..

I’m not trying to sell any of you anything except the idea that we should be concerned about Bitcoin competing in this market, come to an understanding of why it isn’t competing, and do something about it..

I am not only showing that Bitcoin is not competing here, but also that ETH is even directly taking some of this market from Bitcoin that was originally on Bitcoin..

Why is this? Good question.. We should brainstorm about this (if anyone cares)..
A main reason I can think of.. Nobody cares!!!
Y’all don’t care.. Just dismiss it.. Even enforce your dismissal by bashing it entirely..

Another big reason could be awareness.. I don’t think people are even aware of the capability of doing the same things on Bitcoin, or why it would be better to do on Bitcoin..

With ETH 2.0 coming up so soon their is good chances that ETH could crash entirely, and I would not consider it a stable and reliable blockchain at all, is one good reason I would say it would be better to do on Bitcoin..

What should we do to get this activity on to Bitcoin instead?
I don’t know.. Any ideas instead of just bashing and dismissing it?
Awareness? Support? Usage? Investment? Interest? Development support? Network support? Exchange support?
All of which are almost zero!

Really, most of the replies in this thread show exactly why..
So much hostility..
Guarantee you wouldn’t find this same hostility in the ETH community, even if persons don’t like NFTs or tolkens at all, I bet their glad that they are using ETH and that they have almost all but cornered the market..

As much as I'd love to be able to change ownership of my car without government approval, I don't think this is ever going to happen. What if someone loses their private key? Now they just pay €32,60 and get new papers. If you can replace your "registration token" by a new one, it defeats the purpose of using a token. I can think of more problems: what if someone steals your token?

BTC is a cult, you can't talk to them like they are rational.
If they were rational, they be concerned about the issues you raised, and the government threats of PoW mining bans.

But they just yell decentralized, and Moon, and expect everything to be ok.

The main reason, I dumped all of my BTC at the 1st $20K years ago,
is there is no one left with any sense in the btc driver seat.

That way I won't care when BTC runs off of the inevitable ever closer cliff.  

Ethereum will take the #1 spot, and the real future of crypto is Proof of Stake, the ones not affected by the coming government PoW bans.
PoS is over 99% more energy efficient than Proof of Waste.
Smart Contracts are becoming more important.
Onchain Transaction Capacity matters
PoS chains can achieve transaction finality in 4 seconds, as algorand has done, btc never achieves transaction finality.
PoS Pools like in cardano are thousands of times more decentralized than BTC PoW mere 4 mining pool operators.
BTC cultists can't understand any of that,
but when the PoW bans happen and the price of BTC hits zero, we will see if they understand it then.  
 

I've never argued against NFTs from the point of view of memes or "poor art" being worthless. I've argued against them from the point of the very concept of me "owning" a meme but that everyone else can still use, share, edit, print, display, etc., is pointless. I think NFTs probably have future utility in terms of proving ownership of physical assets such as property, vehicles, etc., maybe even for trademarks and copyrights, but not for memesa.

Even if Foxy declares that she absolutely loves NFTs and thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread, doesn't mean I still can't think they are 99% stupid. And Foxpup is getting our avatar space (and a few hidden bonuses too ), not some hash of the avatar she designed.

---

Still, as I said above, if you want to port all your NFTs to bitcoin, then I, or anybody else for that matter, can't stop you. People like me are obviously not the target market here. So rather than arguing about the utility or futility of NFTs, let me ask you (as someone who is obviously heavily involved in NFTs) this: Why do you think people are doing all this activity on Ethereum instead of on Bitcoin? What should we do to get this activity on to Bitcoin instead?

all the people in the above posts, talking about NFT, from the scammy scenario of where NFT is being used for stupid stuff

i agree NFT for silly trading cards and art thats all overpriced is all crap... useless utility of NFT


..
but in other usecases that NFT could do some actual business, retail and experience for people on the internet.. NFT can actually be used for alot that is nothing to do with silly art crap..


we should be pushing for a bitcoin sidenet(with strong peg/unlike other pegs for bitcoin altnets)
which then bridge value over to the side net. which then allows REAL ideals of actual things of business and trade which are done via NFT.. not the silly art show crap

I almost bought one of those back in 16 or 17 before the $20k pump.. I was there, had the funds, and could have got one for around 0.25 BTC in value iirc..

I didn’t and bought a bunch of other lesser ones..

That Nakamoto Card didn’t just boom out of the middle of nowhere, it always had high value soon after the Rare Pepe project started gaining traction..

It slowly gained and gained value.. From little to 0.25 BTC, to 0.5 BTC, to 1 BTC, all through the pump, and held all through the bear thereafter..

These were and are not some pump and dump.. These early cards always held very well and keep gaining..


Now, for those of you not in the know.. These times were before the term “NFT” existed.. Before OpenSea existed.. Before any of the NFT hysteria ever happened..
We all had TONS of fun doing this! And put down tons of use on Bitcoin doing this..

And now what?
They are commanding the highest price after being moved to the ETH blockchain!
To me this is sickening! How much more Bitcoin does it get than Nakamoto?
WTF?


And to the point of the value being the “art” and “real artists” etc..
Their is more to “art” than simply the supposed quality of the imagery..
Their is an entirely different concept of “art” in memes..
You can be the greatest artist in the world and not be able to create “memes”.. Great memes are the art of condensing one or many points and meanings into a simple concise image that is TRULY worth a thousand words, and the simpler the better.. A great meme is simplicity that describes or represents complex things, and that’s the beauty of it.. The “art” is in the meaning and the simpler the representation the better..

“Rare Pepe” itself is a meme, quite fresh back then..
Dorian Nakamoto is a meme..
The meme of making Pepes truly rare by stamping them on the Bitcoin blockchain in limited tradable and transferable quantities is and was absolutely genius..

The “art” isn’t that great? Well let’s see your great artists do something genius like that..
It’s a whole lot more than the subjective quality of the appearance..

And it’s being moved to ETH  
Very sad..


Let’s have a little look at the general thoughts about/toward ETH within the project at the time..





dnd dice creator

Hmm…
Shit art you say? Let’s see your artists express meaning like that..


This isn’t just about the Rare Pepes project though.. It’s just a great and ironic example that proves the point of Bitcoin losing this market share this topic is about..


——————————————

Another great irony I’m seeing here..
“Merit cycling club” avatars arguing against the value of memes/“poor art”, while being paid handsomely to wear a meme avatar which is “poor art”, being merited by foxpup himself who pays them to wear this meme which is “poor art”, and meriting eachother..
 

Can’t make this shit up folks..

It is just a meme, right guys?

Are you bicycling the merit speedway?
Some sort of charity like a marathon to end breast cancer riding your bicycles to be paid in forum merits?
Are you cycling merits amongst yourselves gaming the system in your club to control DT with your I’ll gotten voting power?

Or, is it a poorly drawn MEME mocking other users who complain about you all meriting eachother?
(Good example of a great meme, poorly drawn, “low quality”, one would only know the meaning of you were “in the know”, picture worth a thousand words)

Also of great value to some it seems.. Hold on, let me see if I can figure out how much $$/BTC is being spent to show it around..
Calculating…




March 2019..
About 3.5 years..
52X3.5X0.015=2.73BTC per participant..
Holy shit..
How many participants? Let’s guess 5..

Over 13 BTC for a meme..
Even at a paltry $20k per that’s a fucking quarter million $$ USD..

Y’all better 180 and praise the value of memes to the highest heaven..

Damn y’all are getting rich posting on this forum, on top of your CM signatures.. No wonder you post so much..
If only I could conform myself to the “in” crowd and spend all my time posting..





I’m lost for words..

Except that bitcoin gives a solution to a real-world problem, that is sending electronic cash over communication channels cheaply, fast, and in a censorship resistant fashion? Who's generalizing now? 

I don't ignore your points on NFTs, neither do I say they're ponzi. I just find no utility on buying hashes of binaries. That's all. I've already told you before: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.60681117

And because they're cards... with a physical beingness? Owning one card means you get the (physical) rights to share it with your friends, show it to the public, completely disappearing it off the face of the planet-- generally, you own the card, and not a liability / receipt of the card. On the other hand, the moment I upload my digital card on OpenSea, it stops being in my possession, and everyone can utilize it.

I honestly see no benefits on buying an NFT art. I do see some benefit of buying a painting, but not the rights that I own it. Especially when these rights are community-driven and not by the law.

I think we all know the answer to that one. Greed.

You can compare them to baseball cards, but is there any reason we can't compare them to something like beanie babies instead? A short lived fad, which people will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on now, in 5 years will be worth nothing, and in 20 years we will look back on it and shake our heads at how people could be so stupid as to spend all that money on a stuffed toy/some MS paint drawing?

Exactly my point. There are some legitimate uses for NFTs, and I would have no problem with these legitimate uses being based on Bitcoin, but I see no reason to attract what are 99% scams to migrate from Ethereum to Bitcoin. But if other people do, then go ahead. I can't stop you.

Bisq, LocalCryptos, HodlHodl, RoboSats. See more: https://kycnot.me/

Can you please share names of bitcoin Dexes? Have not used one and after 4 years in the space it is surprising to know it exist. I so consider it for trade in countries with strong restriction for cryptocurrency. How do people convert there stable coin to fiat in USA without wallet monitoring ?

The value behind the NFT has very little to do with subjective perceptions of the quality of the art. The art isn't even attached to the token on a blockchain level, by URL or image hash, or anything. The reasons why it commands a huge price tag include:

- its token name (RAREPEPE -- it was in essence the first Rare Pepe)
- its age (a week shy of being 6 years old, which is nearly ancient by NFT standards)
- its scarcity (it was created with a total quantity of 300 tokens, many of which are out of circulation)
- it represents the beginning of a new use for Bitcoin technology (making collectibles, more or less)

It actually cannot be "reproduced" whatsoever. The essence of its existence is secured on the blockchain, just like your bitcoin. You can make forgeries, but those in the know will be able to spot them.

Think of it like a baseball card.



Looks a bit low-quality, and not a very impressive portrait. Yet these sell for millions of dollars. Why? Because they are scarce, very old, and made back when hardly anybody else was making baseball cards.

Age or historical-ness of NFTs certainly isn't the only reason they are collected -- they are collected for all sorts of reason. But the vast majority require perpetual hype to sustain elevated floor prices, and yeah, a lot of them are scams.

To answer your question, if you think NFTs have been "ruined," then its the same forces that ruined the name of bitcoin or crypto that are to blame -- mainly greed. This space just attracts a lot of incredibly greedy people. It always has. But once the meaningfulness of the technology can be separated from instinctual connotations, people can go a lot farther in understanding what beneficial uses it actually possesses.

Conversely, I do believe that NFTs have some legitimate uses - as art.

Emphasis on the word "art". Anybody can see that Bored Apes and Founders Club and similar high-value NFTs are a small minority of the population, because they were designed by real artists (similar to 14-15th century Renascence artists).

The rest of the stuff being sold on opensea is, in fact, garbage paintings drawn on MS paint or just taken with a video camera, by non-artists who are hoping to make a quick buck. I mean, there are literally NFTs that are just GIFs or screenshots of tweets and other stuff and these kind of things make a majority of the stuff for sale.

Even Adolf Hitler's paintings look better than a lot of the pixelated graphics on OpenSea drawn (or stolen) by amateurs. [And they say he was as bad an artist as he was a leader.]

P.S. the Nakamoto Pepe cards you just displayed are also in this category. The truth is, it is quite easy to reproduce if you have basic art skills (or just use a website that does it for you).

At this point, it ceases to be a question about: which blockchain should this be hosted on, and more about: why the hell did people ruin the NFTs? Which by the way is not our problem or Ethereum's, but that of the artists, buyers and sellers on the NFT markets. The fact that people everywhere are lynching (*edited for typo) Ethereum for that goes on to demonstrate that the blockchain shares some responsibility for the layer 2 stuff it hosts on it.

By hosting something, you share that responsibility with what happens to it. So is it really worth the daggers thrown by the media and investors just to have all the volume?

Why do you think despite all this tech and volume, Eth is still only at $2K?

These are my favorite types of arguments that people use against the prospect of having to learn something new: "We own the high ground by continuing to not understand the subject of discussion."

Pretty much all the counterpoints being made in this thread come from a place of arrogant ignorance, and they largely overlap with the same arguments that no-coiners have been making against bitcoin for years:

- NFTs are a fad
- they're not real
- they're not backed by anything
- they're a ponzi scheme
- they have no utility.

Well, you're wrong, just as no-coiners are often wrong in their attacks on bitcoin. Its just more comfortable to make sweeping generalizations and stick with them forever than make slight alterations to your world view in light of new information.

Not as part of bitcoin protocol.

Well, that's the only purpose the token platforms such as ethereum serve so obviously shittokens are created there instead of bitcoin which is not a token platform but payment system.

You can put dog poop in a beautiful looking bag and sell it for a lot of money per bag but that doesn't make it useful.

They do exist in bitcoin, if you didn't know: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Colored_Coins. They don't have the same activity as in Ethereum, because they weren't disgustingly hyped up. They do have a purpose, as said by o_e_l_e_o (BSQ tokens), but I've seen nobody interested in trading bitcoin-apes, probably because reasonable people don't trade digital scarcity for hashes of jpegs.

And they will ignore your efforts and trade shitcoins anyway.

You're asking a question I've asked many times while watching the market of some worthless shitcoins like all those bitcoin "clones" like bitcoin god. There even was "bitcoin turbo koin". All those things had hundreds of thousands in volume. Who the hell buys that shit?

The answer is idiots.The world is full of them. Every one out of 10 people you meet is a fool and those fools finance the industry that builds, lists and pumps these coins so that a group of people can make money and start another shitty project. The money must come from somewhere and it comes from fools who work overtime to later buy a bitcoin SV "because Craig satoshi said it's the real bitcoin" or buy BCH because Roger said "it's the new king".

Sorry, I missed your edit when I posted my previous reply.

I'm not sure I do, because I don't see it as a thriving economy. I see it as a short lived scam.

$30 billion on pictures of apes and other utterly stupid NFTs is not a sustainable economy. I'm sure there are some legitimate uses of NFTs, but such uses are dwarfed by the (as you point out) billions of dollars being traded on absolutely worthless crap. I'm of the opinion that this will go the same way of all the altcoins of the 2017 boom, all the ICOs/IEOs/ITOs and other three letter acronyms, all the lending platforms tokens which are now collapsing, and so on. Yes, we there will be a very small minority of the NFT sector which will survive to longevity, but that vast majority will disappear to nothing or exit scam.

Would having all this activity on bitcoin bring a short term benefit in terms of price and volume? Most probably. Would having bitcoin forever associated with millions of people losing billions of dollars in a huge scam be worth it? I don't think so.

The difference here is the nocoiners have been nocoiners on the same asset for over a decade, and that same asset continues not just to survive, but to grow and develop. People like me who have little time for the vast majority of altcoins have seen literally thousands of different altcoins over dozens of different "sectors" (ICOs, NFTs, DeFi, etc.) completely disappear over half that time.

Absolutely!
Things like this..

It should be pushed that if you want to do serious/important things, it needs to be done on Bitcoin..


That $30 billion NFT volume is an obvious one..
Just because you think their stupid doesn’t mean it isn’t a huge market..

I think they can be a lot of fun, and then at times when some people want to pay stupid money for them, I sell them..

I think a lot of crypto users talk about NFTs just like nocoiners talk about Bitcoin.. They see a huge profit opportunity slip by so they have to come up with reasons to justify to themselves why they didn’t partake..

So there goes a $30 billion market away from Bitcoin to ETH, and news headlines all over the place for ETH and not Bitcoin..


All that tolken mania in 2017..
Scammy or not that pumped the price of ETH HUGE because of the use case and gas fees..



https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/02/19/the-real-problem-with-nocoiners/
 what makes a nocoiner a nocoiner is not simply the absence of cryptocurrency from his investment portfolio, but his sanctimonious attitude about it.
people who missed their opportunity to buy Bitcoin at a low price ... and who [are] now bitter at having missed out. The nocoiner takes out his or her bitterness on Bitcoin Hodlers, by constantly claiming that Bitcoin will crash, is a scam, is a bubble, or other types of easily refuted FUD.
In other words, a nocoiner is full of what philosophers call ressentiment, defined by La Wik as "a reassignment of the pain that accompanies a sense of one's own inferiority/failure onto an external scapegoat.
The nocoiner isn't just skeptical or even bearish about bitcoin. He feigns epistemic certainty that it will fail.
A nocoiner doesn’t simply express doubt about the use cases for cryptocurrency – he declares, unequivocally, that there are no use cases at all, in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Now if that doesn’t sound familiar… Hmmmm..

shitcoins evolution of NFT has resulted in shit utility of shit NFT

mainly people selling crap for excess amounts where the new owner then cant do much
however there are many real world things where a NFT utility could actually have good prospect

NFT is used mainly to crap auction other crap that would never sell in real auctions..
but imaging the real utility factors of positive use web3.

where by instead of buying cloud/hosting services with fiat. you buy/lease it as 'the metaverse 'land' where you then can design 3d retail stores(on the servers), to display your products in 3d and let users navigate it in 3d instead of boring 2d webpage display.
people can be like architects designing shopping malls. and selling their 3d renders to businesses, which then lease the retail store space inside.

ofcourse right now metaverse is just a silly game style view of people just chatting and playing games. but it can become its own retail/business/service universe of real business and utility, where lots of businesses can run and operate in it selling real product displayed in metaverse and then real world delivered to peoples homes on payment.

we should be trying to get bitcoin to be the main backed asset for the pegged tokens used in the metaverse, before ethereum takes too much control and become the common currency of web3

Simply because bitcoin didn't slip away from its fundamentals while most shitcoins including the top altcoins turned to favour for something but bitcoin remain how it was which gives the confidence for a common man to have more trust on it than any other shitcoins.

Probably a coin will replace the bitcoin in the future because change is the only thing in this temporary world but the coin will replace the place is yet to be identified in my opinion.