Why do you trust the miners? | Bitcointalksearch.org

gene

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Quote from: Vladimir on June 04, 2011, 10:14:25 PM

Quote from: ChristianK on June 04, 2011, 10:11:47 PM

After the initial adoption of the currency miners have an incentive to change the protocol in a way where mining produces more coins.

False. Why would they want to turn gold into shit, literally?

This assumes that a large node wants to support the bitcoin network.

Let us consider if a node wants to undermine bitcoin by showing (very publicly) a few large double-spends?

What would happen to the value of the blockchain? What would it do in terms of trust?

Would any serious players ever touch bitcoin again?

So no, we shouldn't need to trust a third party for anything. After all, that's the whole point to bitcoin in the first place!

We need to question trust. ALL THE TIME. If bitcoin requires trust, then it is broken.

For a possible solution, check this thread:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9137.0

Dude65535

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50+% majority only decides which transactions have happens (you can't create invalid transactions but you can prevent valid ones from happening, or given enough computation power reverse existing transactions). Even if miners try to change the block reward, any copy of the software that has not been updated to the same rules will see the blocks and the rewards they assign themselves in these blocks as invalid. The software will not acknowledge the existence of any coins created in or any transaction listed in those blocks.

cloud9

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Quote from: ChristianK on June 05, 2011, 08:42:08 AM

If they half the required difficulty they should also double the money creation. Shouldn't they?

The democratic accepted (50% majority rules - maybe it can even be adjusted in future to 95% agreement rules) bitcoin algorithm prevent them from doing so, unless one group attains a majority of more than 50%.

See http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=57.msg170819#msg170819 for explanation on Equation of Exchange.

In essence it would also be to the miners' detriment if they undermine bitcoin's integrity (as bitcoin is worthless without a network with integrity) - if illegitimate transfers are conducted during such a period of majority network hash power which could enable a do as you please, it will show up in the block chain and the culprit will be identified easily as the miner having majority mining hash power - and vested interest holders will quickly pick it up as well. If it happens - it will be a temporary undermining of the bitcoin network's integrity - which would maybe even be reversible in some instances. Bitcoin's spirit is a spirit of decentralization - and concentrating to much hash power to one mining pool is counter decentralization - and a step towards centralization - making abuse easier, but not inevitable.

Sukrim

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Quote from: ChristianK on June 05, 2011, 08:42:08 AM

If they half the required difficulty they should also double the money creation. Shouldn't they?

They cannot mess with difficulty, as this is not something under their control. No other "real" Bitcoin client would accept such a block.

ChristianK

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Quote from: Sukrim on June 05, 2011, 08:12:59 AM

Quote from: ChristianK on June 05, 2011, 08:00:32 AM

Bitcoin weekly wrote that you can do stuff like double spending when you have 51% networking power. The group of miners can find a way to increase the money supply without doing anything that would get clients to refuse it.

And how?
There are a few simple rules in BTC that all blocks have to obey to be valid:

1) Longest chain of valid blocks = valid
2) In the beginning of each block, some BTC can be sent out of nowhere to somewhere (= BTC creation, currently 50 BTC/block)
3) Additionally, transaction fees in that block can be sent somewhere
4) The "key" to solve each block must be at least of the difficulty X (which is agreed upon in the whole network)

Any block not fulfilling ALL of these criteria is not vaild. You can create blocks that generate 1000 BTC for example, nobody will accept them though.

50% attacks target the rule #1: while the rest of the network thinks they have the longest chain, a malicious miner might create their own part of the chain in the meantime faster than the rest of the network. In the meantime he spends a million coins on carrots and after the deal has been confirmed, he shows his own (longer) blockchain to the world where that transaction is not included.
The other guy (thinking he has received these BTC) has however already shipped the carrots and is now screwed.

If they half the required difficulty they should also double the money creation. Shouldn't they?

unemployed

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my precioussss

cloud9

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Would there be a bitcoin without miners? Same for bitcoin merchants/traders/exchangers. Without you, would there be a very, very sercure network having bitcoins in it - but would bitcoins have no value in relation to any goods/services/other neither?

Sukrim

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Quote from: ChristianK on June 05, 2011, 08:00:32 AM

Bitcoin weekly wrote that you can do stuff like double spending when you have 51% networking power. The group of miners can find a way to increase the money supply without doing anything that would get clients to refuse it.

And how?
There are a few simple rules in BTC that all blocks have to obey to be valid:

1) Longest chain of valid blocks = valid
2) In the beginning of each block, some BTC can be sent out of nowhere to somewhere (= BTC creation, currently 50 BTC/block)
3) Additionally, transaction fees in that block can be sent somewhere
4) The "key" to solve each block must be at least of the difficulty X (which is agreed upon in the whole network)

Any block not fulfilling ALL of these criteria is not vaild. You can create blocks that generate 1000 BTC for example, nobody will accept them though.

50% attacks target the rule #1: while the rest of the network thinks they have the longest chain, a malicious miner might create their own part of the chain in the meantime faster than the rest of the network. In the meantime he spends a million coins on carrots and after the deal has been confirmed, he shows his own (longer) blockchain to the world where that transaction is not included.
The other guy (thinking he has received these BTC) has however already shipped the carrots and is now screwed.

kwukduck

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Yes, i know it can be done much better... just wanted to do a quick shop.

ChristianK

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Quote

You don't need to trust the miners, unless a single miner/pool has over 50% of the network power.

The group of miners has an economic incentive to increase the amount of bitcoins that get created through mining.
You basically assume that the group will act against the self interest of it's members because no single member of the group can act according to his self interest.

Quote

False. Why would they want to turn gold into shit, literally?

At the moment central banks print money without "invalidating" the currency. People trust the central bank to refuse to print to much money.
You just shift your trust from one entity to another. The miners care about making the biggest profit possible.

Quote

Additionally, all of the users of bitcoin would have to change the rules too, otherwise the 'fake' blocks wouldn't be accepted, and the miners would have forked bitcoin into another currency.

Bitcoin weekly wrote that you can do stuff like double spending when you have 51% networking power. The group of miners can find a way to increase the money supply without doing anything that would get clients to refuse it.

Horkabork

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I agree one hundred percent. In fact, I think the same thing about dollars as well. I mean, why should I spend all my time working for hardly any money when I could just start my own money system and pay myself in that?

On an hourly wage, I could get TONS more Horkaborkabills than US Dollars. In fact, I'd probably stop doing work things and just spend all my time printing more Horkaborkabills with no restraint. I can't believe nobody has thought of this before.

BubbleBoy

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Miners are sneaky indeed, veeery sneaky.

Photoshop guys, can we get one where he's holding a bitcoin ? It would sure apply to the speculators in the current block chain.

hugolp

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Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol

Quote from: benjamindees on June 04, 2011, 10:39:24 PM

Smeagol doesn't trust filthy minersess... always trying to take my precious.

LOL

jatajuta

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Quote from: benjamindees on June 04, 2011, 10:39:24 PM

Smeagol doesn't trust filthy minersess... always trying to take my precious.

made me actually hear smeagol's voice. LOL

herbertfilby

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RED FACTION!

TheMagikarp

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Quote from: chiropteran on June 04, 2011, 10:41:39 PM

Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us.

We are legion.

tabshift

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Quote from: chiropteran on June 04, 2011, 10:41:39 PM

Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us.

chiropteran

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Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us.

benjamindees

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Smeagol doesn't trust filthy minersess... always trying to take my precious.

Dude65535

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The bitcoin protocol is designed so it is almost always more profitable to follow the rules than to break them. Its not hard to trust that people will want to make money.

Topic: Why do you trust the miners? (Read 3092 times)