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Topic: Why does Bitcoin subsidize saving? - page 3. (Read 8585 times)

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
August 31, 2012, 10:36:06 AM
#75
But what you don't get is that inflation does not necessarily equal Keynes, just like deflation does not necessarily equal Austrian. And the god awful majority of you didn't know your ass from Austrian economics until you heard of bitcoin.
What you don't get (or are deliberately ignoring) is that people don't want their savings to devalue over time. You are loudly arguing that Bitcoin needs to be "fixed" to stop offering people what they want because people shouldn't want it.

A lot of vested interests are doing very well right now because everybody else has limited choices with regards to storing deferred consumption so I'm not surprised to see people desperately trying to hamper the idea that alternatives are possible from spreading.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 10:28:16 AM
#74
But what you don't get is that inflation does not necessarily equal Keynes, just like deflation does not necessarily equal Austrian. And the god awful majority of you didn't know your ass from Austrian economics until you heard of bitcoin.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
August 31, 2012, 10:03:39 AM
#73
So even if you're starving you won't buy food but you'll keep your money because it doesn't lose value with time passing?
No, I'll buy food with the currency I actually have, because everyone will have a choice to either use the currency that sucks but is available, or the currency-like commodity that has a small set of rabid supporters who don't want to invest their money (or claim that they're investing in saving) and claim that consumption is teh debil.

Whatever though folks, enough of this revolving door of narrow arguments and inability to see bigger pictures, et al. Enjoy coveting your pet rocks.

Sorry dude, this is a hotbed of rabid anti-Keynesians.  We get it that you prefer that your money inflate, we simply disagree, and we have our reasons.  You have a high bar to pass if you want to convince us, and reductio ad absurdum isn't going to be enough.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 09:48:32 AM
#72
So even if you're starving you won't buy food but you'll keep your money because it doesn't lose value with time passing?
No, I'll buy food with the currency I actually have, because everyone will have a choice to either use the currency that sucks but is available, or the currency-like commodity that has a small set of rabid supporters who don't want to invest their money (or claim that they're investing in saving) and claim that consumption is teh debil.

Whatever though folks, enough of this revolving door of narrow arguments and inability to see bigger pictures, et al. Enjoy coveting your pet rocks.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
August 31, 2012, 09:37:27 AM
#71
Unless of course you have some solution for how the everyman will acquire bitcoins when half of them will have been mined in a few months?

Trade.
In the currency that pays you for not trading. GREAT ANSWER

Flip it around.  The dollar is inflationary.  Every time you sell something, you could have gotten more dollars by waiting until tomorrow.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 09:32:19 AM
#70
Unless of course you have some solution for how the everyman will acquire bitcoins when half of them will have been mined in a few months?

Trade.
In the currency that pays you for not trading. GREAT ANSWER

So even if you're starving you won't buy food but you'll keep your money because it doesn't lose value with time passing?
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 09:26:15 AM
#69
Unless of course you have some solution for how the everyman will acquire bitcoins when half of them will have been mined in a few months?

Trade.
In the currency that pays you for not trading. GREAT ANSWER
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
August 31, 2012, 09:22:33 AM
#68
Unless of course you have some solution for how the everyman will acquire bitcoins when half of them will have been mined in a few months?

Trade.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 09:08:40 AM
#67
You earn the interest for earning money. "Saving" means earning money.
You are just a font of amazing new definitions. I wish I could redefine everything to fit my point of view, it would make life so much easier.

Quote
Your future intent does not affect the consequences of your actions.
No, but the intent of the economy as a whole does.

Quote from: me
the expected outcome on encouraging a high time preference is that either: 1) investment dwindles and there are very few "goal-oriented jobs" and people without money suffer (though this may be somewhat specific to bitcoin and the lack for need of a banking system); or 2) consumption rates will eventually equalize and it will just be older people that consume more now that money will have no meaning sooner rather than later.
Sorry that should say low time preference, but the point remains: interest rates will be very high and there will be little economic growth if everyone has a low time preference (read Menger! an Austrian!). Unless of course you have some solution for how the everyman will acquire bitcoins when half of them will have been mined in a few months?

Quote from: unclescrooge
yes it is central to the discussion. Letting money sit in a wallet is not the same as letting real capital (let's say a machine) in a garage.
I will give you the distinction between capital and money; however, the point remains that there is little incentive for money to become capital, and thus little economic growth. You are the one that is claiming that delaying consumption spurs economic growth, but that has to be traded off the form of high-risk, innovative pursuits according to Rostow, whom you quoted almost verbatim.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
August 31, 2012, 08:46:00 AM
#66
it's also a complete non sequitur to the discussion, but maybe if it's bolded and in a bigger font it will mean something more

Ok.  It is already bold, I can't make it bolder.  How about red?

Money is not riches, it's representation of riches.

Your posts make it clear that you do not understand this distinction.  Here is a recent example:

Explain to me how non-productive capital pursues innovation or accelerates the rate of growth in the economy. Or are we just going to say that capital sitting in a wallet accruing deflationary interest at little to no risk is productive again? Innovative, even?

Capital does not sit in wallets.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
August 31, 2012, 08:43:36 AM
#65
Earning interest for doing nothing is exactly what banks do when they print money, but you want to suck on that same teat because you believe you're entitled and you must rationalize this in some other way.
It is astonishing to me that you would consider earning money to be "doing nothing" but destroying goods to be something worth encouraging.

Are you hard of reading? I said "earning interest for doing nothing", that is quite different from what you claimed I said.
You earn the interest for earning money. "Saving" means earning money.

Quote
And how does saving with the intent to destroy more goods later than less goods now solve anything? Hint: it doesn't. You are just trying to rationalize again. "lol maybe if i leave off half the equation he won't notice!"
Your future intent does not affect the consequences of your actions.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 08:41:59 AM
#64
it's also a complete non sequitur to the discussion, but maybe if it's bolded and in a bigger font it will mean something more

yes it is central to the discussion. Letting money sit in a wallet is not the same as letting real capital (let's say a machine) in a garage.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 08:38:45 AM
#63
it's also a complete non sequitur to the discussion, but maybe if it's bolded and in a bigger font it will mean something more
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
August 31, 2012, 08:37:11 AM
#62
Money is not riches, it's representation of riches.

Money is not riches, it's representation of riches.

Money is not riches, it's representation of riches.

Put another way, money is not wealth.  Money is what you use to purchase wealth.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 08:36:05 AM
#61
oh back to proselytizing again, gotcha
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 08:34:07 AM
#60
If you're quoting Rostow or something unclescrooge, you're quite misguided. Big surprise there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostow's_stages_of_growth

Quote
The take-off also needs a group of entrepreneurs in the society who pursue innovation and accelerate the rate of growth in the economy. For such an entrepreneurial class to develop, firstly, an ethos of "delayed gratification", a preference for capital accumulation over expenditure, and high tolerance of risk must be present.

Explain to me how non-productive capital pursues innovation or accelerates the rate of growth in the economy. Or are we just going to say that capital sitting in a wallet accruing deflationary interest at little to no risk is productive again? Innovative, even?

Alternatively, please link me to your sources or the book you wrote explaining your statement.

Money is not production, it's representation of production.

If I work for 100 000 dollars and let then this dollars in a mattress (or actually burn them), what really happened is that I produced something real and useful for others, while not consuming what I produced. Which then lead, all things else been equal, to lower prices of good for others > economic progress.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 08:24:45 AM
#59
If you're quoting Rostow or something unclescrooge, you're quite misguided. Big surprise there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostow's_stages_of_growth

Quote
The take-off also needs a group of entrepreneurs in the society who pursue innovation and accelerate the rate of growth in the economy. For such an entrepreneurial class to develop, firstly, an ethos of "delayed gratification", a preference for capital accumulation over expenditure, and high tolerance of risk must be present.

Explain to me how non-productive capital pursues innovation or accelerates the rate of growth in the economy. Or are we just going to say that capital sitting in a wallet accruing deflationary interest at little to no risk is productive again? Innovative, even?

Alternatively, please link me to your sources or the book you wrote explaining your statement.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 08:07:09 AM
#58
And how does saving with the intent to destroy more goods later than less goods now solve anything? Hint: it doesn't.

It does.

Delaying consumption is actually how economic progress is made.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2012, 07:57:37 AM
#57
Earning interest for doing nothing is exactly what banks do when they print money, but you want to suck on that same teat because you believe you're entitled and you must rationalize this in some other way.
It is astonishing to me that you would consider earning money to be "doing nothing" but destroying goods to be something worth encouraging.

Are you hard of reading? I said "earning interest for doing nothing", that is quite different from what you claimed I said.

And how does saving with the intent to destroy more goods later than less goods now solve anything? Hint: it doesn't. You are just trying to rationalize again. "lol maybe if i leave off half the equation he won't notice!"
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: 1pirata
August 31, 2012, 07:54:22 AM
#56
Earning interest for doing nothing is exactly what banks do when they print money, but you want to suck on that same teat because you believe you're entitled and you must rationalize this in some other way.
It is astonishing to me that you would consider earning money to be "doing nothing" but destroying goods to be something worth encouraging.


Keynes for the win Smiley

+1, this world is slowly getting out of hand...
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