Why doesn't bitcoin have a "freeze" function?

ABCbits

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on August 28, 2021, 02:34:25 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on August 25, 2021, 04:49:28 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:06 PM

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

Ever heard of credit card shimming?

See https://www.zdnet.com/article/researchers-create-magstripe-versions-of-emv-and-contactless-cards/

Card skimming, or card shimming does not affect the end-user of a credit card, beyond a fairly minor inconvenience. While the law says that consumers have no more than $50 in liability when their credit card is stolen, most credit card issuers have "$0 liability" policies, and consumers are not liable when their credit card number is used due to a data breach. This is something that was pointed out on the first page.

Minor inconvenience? I disagree since there's real concern if technology illiterate user use their credit card on physical store. At least in my country, there are few news where rouge worker perform skimming/shimming when user give their credit card to the worker. Besides, i merely mentioned about shimming to show that card with chips isn't 100% secure.

larry_vw_1955

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Another possible way to implement this freezing functionality is to have special address (lets say it starts with F) that can only be used to hold funds from a normal btc address. These addresses would provide extra security since even if they were compromised the hacker would not be able to do anything with the money except to send it back to the address it corresponded to. And that would only be possible if they unfroze the address first. Because you can't send money to a frozen address.

In a sense then it boils down to how does one connect a normal btc address to one of these new address types that start with an F? And once they have made this connection, how do they go about freezing and unfreezing? In the frozen state, what happens if new funds get sent to the frozen address?

You guys rock, I mean you're so smart!

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on August 28, 2021, 02:34:25 AM

I have seen other people engage in similar behavior recently. I appreciate Larry's desire to improve upon bitcoin, even if his specific proposal is not something that should be implemented. I encourage Larry and others to come up with ways to improve bitcoin. I somewhat suspect that some people propose flawed ideas with the hope of having their idea implanted, and being able to write this on their resume.

flawed ideas??

you can't be talking about me! Shocked

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 28, 2021, 04:56:20 AM

Then from that that inefficiency something will be invented to make barter, and trade more efficient.

You mean like bitcoin?

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In the internet, there needs to be a way to make a trade with a currency that users don’t need permission to use, that can’t be censored by an authority.

Well I definitely agree with that. But the problem is you're glamorizing the process more than it deserves. Users do need permission to engage in bitcoin to be quite honest. Where are you going to get bitcoin from? Oh that's right you have to buy it from a 3rd party and they need to know who you are so the government can be satisfied. And that 3rd party could be notorious for freezing peoples bitcoin and locking their account for weeks if not months. How's that sound?

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 28, 2021, 04:50:29 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on August 28, 2021, 02:34:25 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on August 25, 2021, 04:49:28 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:06 PM

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

Ever heard of credit card shimming?

See https://www.zdnet.com/article/researchers-create-magstripe-versions-of-emv-and-contactless-cards/

Card skimming, or card shimming does not affect the end-user of a credit card, beyond a fairly minor inconvenience. While the law says that consumers have no more than $50 in liability when their credit card is stolen, most credit card issuers have "$0 liability" policies, and consumers are not liable when their credit card number is used due to a data breach. This is something that was pointed out on the first page.

Minor inconvenience? I disagree since there's real concern if technology illiterate user use their credit card on physical store. At least in my country, there are few news where rouge worker perform skimming/shimming when user give their credit card to the worker. Besides, i merely mentioned about shimming to show that card with chips isn't 100% secure.

If your card information is stolen by a criminal via whatever means, the end-user is not going to pay for any unauthorized transactions. So if your card is skimmed/shimmed, you can complete some paperwork, wont be able to use your card for a number of days while the bank sends you a replacement card, and you will not be on the hook for unauthorized transactions.

What are you saying is the loss to the end-user beyond an inconvenience? If you use a card at a restaurant for example, it will be out of your possession, and the staff can do whatever they want with it, but this will not affect the end user.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 28, 2021, 12:13:29 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 27, 2021, 04:35:52 AM

That’s OK, and the system will work until it doesn’t. But people should know, and truly understand that, not your vault, not your money, and governments can lose control of the financial system. Bitcoin is a good fall back/back up.

I suppose if the us dollar ever became worthless so that people used it as toilet paper, MAYBE bitcoin could be some form of bartering value but that's just a maybe. Gold and silver would be more likely. Or other things like gasoline or food or shelter. Physical assets. Not intangibles.

Then from that that inefficiency something will be invented to make barter, and trade more efficient. In the internet, there needs to be a way to make a trade with a currency that users don’t need permission to use, that can’t be censored by an authority. It might not have a “freeze function”, but it’s enough to make your Heroine purchase from the dark market.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: ABCbits on August 25, 2021, 04:49:28 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:06 PM

Quote from: Pmalek on August 24, 2021, 03:25:20 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 23, 2021, 10:17:43 PM

You can't clone my credit card.

Ever heard of credit card skimming?

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

Ever heard of credit card shimming?

See https://www.zdnet.com/article/researchers-create-magstripe-versions-of-emv-and-contactless-cards/

Card skimming, or card shimming does not affect the end-user of a credit card, beyond a fairly minor inconvenience. While the law says that consumers have no more than $50 in liability when their credit card is stolen, most credit card issuers have "$0 liability" policies, and consumers are not liable when their credit card number is used due to a data breach. This is something that was pointed out on the first page.

Unless and until a third party is willing to insulate consumers from losses from "unauthorized" bitcoin transactions, the OP's proposal is moot. The only reason why a third party might be willing to cover these types of losses would be if the third party maintained exclusive control over the private keys controlling the coin. It should go without saying that this type of setup creates more problems than it solves.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 24, 2021, 04:09:02 AM

I think we've answered why Bitcoin does not have a freezing function from the very first page. Larry is constantly trying to refute others' valid arguments and the others restate their arguments to refute Larry's utopian proposal.

It's a loop.

I have seen other people engage in similar behavior recently. I appreciate Larry's desire to improve upon bitcoin, even if his specific proposal is not something that should be implemented. I encourage Larry and others to come up with ways to improve bitcoin. I somewhat suspect that some people propose flawed ideas with the hope of having their idea implanted, and being able to write this on their resume.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 27, 2021, 04:35:52 AM

That’s OK, and the system will work until it doesn’t. But people should know, and truly understand that, not your vault, not your money, and governments can lose control of the financial system. Bitcoin is a good fall back/back up.

I suppose if the us dollar ever became worthless so that people used it as toilet paper, MAYBE bitcoin could be some form of bartering value but that's just a maybe. Gold and silver would be more likely. Or other things like gasoline or food or shelter. Physical assets. Not intangibles.

Quote

It’s a front-end, UI issue, not a protocol issue. Ask your favorite Bitcoin wallet.

for the utxo freezing yeah, people should complain to their wallet dev team about that. but it's probably not going to help because people would end up freezing their bitcoin and not being able to spend it for YEARS. and then blaming the wallet.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 25, 2021, 04:53:52 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 25, 2021, 01:06:27 AM

Hahaha. It’s still not insured if the government, or the bank themselves enable their “freeze function” on your account. Not your keys, not your money.

Any custodial solution they could be required to "freeze" someone's funds no matter what form they are in unless and this is a big one, they keep it hidden underneath their mattress. So all other things being equal, I prefer something to be insured. That way as long as the government and bank don't sieze my cash, it belongs to me! And if the bank happened to go bankrupt the government would step in and pay me back.

That’s OK, and the system will work until it doesn’t. But people should know, and truly understand that, not your vault, not your money, and governments can lose control of the financial system. Bitcoin is a good fall back/back up.

Quote

Then what function would a “freeze feature” be of use, if the key holder is in full control of the coins?

if bitcoin has the ability to allow people to freeze things at the UTXO level (in a certain sense) then I dont see why it is such a stretch to want to be able to freeze things at the ADDRESS level. not alot of people probably using the UTXO level freezing feature but it is there.

It’s a front-end, UI issue, not a protocol issue. Ask your favorite Bitcoin wallet.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Pmalek on August 25, 2021, 05:58:50 AM

Nothing related to Bitcoin is supposed to be insured by a central authority/oppressor.

which is exactly why I would refuse to accept any solution to any problem that requires me to hand over my bitcoin to a 3rd party to gain some type of functionality.

Quote

That's exactly what your government-insured financial services providers can do. But they can't do it to your Bitcoin stored in non-custodial wallets, with or without a freeze function.

that's why non-custodial wallets are the preferred way to own bitcoin.

Quote

You are from the USA right? Check with your bank how much it would cost you in transaction fees to send a payment to the Balkans? After that, you can calculate how much the equivalent of that would cost if you spent one Bitcoin input, no matter where you send it. Consider if that is a use case or not.

It's not a use case FOR ME. For someone else, using bitcoin might be the cheapest most cost effective way to send money from the usa to the balkans. I haven't done the research to know whether it is or not. But if somene else has and came to that conclusiion then more power to them.

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:30:29 PM

but I have standards one of them is it has to be insured by the government why is that so hard to appreciate?

You are in the wrong forum then. Nothing related to Bitcoin is supposed to be insured by a central authority/oppressor.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:30:29 PM

If such a company existed, then there is also the chance that they might put a freeze on your bitcoin without your permission as well.

That's exactly what your government-insured financial services providers can do. But they can't do it to your Bitcoin stored in non-custodial wallets, with or without a freeze function.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:06 PM

I personally haven't found a real use case for it. Anything that I could do with bitcoin, I could do cheaper possibly more efficiently a different way.

You are from the USA right? Check with your bank how much it would cost you in transaction fees to send a payment to the Balkans? After that, you can calculate how much the equivalent of that would cost if you spent one Bitcoin input, no matter where you send it. Consider if that is a use case or not.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 25, 2021, 04:53:52 AM

And if the bank happened to go bankrupt the government would step in and pay me back.

Your money is insured up to a certain value, but depending on how much you have, not everything will be paid back as you say. For ordinary people, that should be enough though.

Quote

The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation is an independent federal agency insuring deposits in U.S. banks and thrifts in the event of bank failures. As of 2020, the FDIC insures deposits up to $250,000 per depositor

Source

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 25, 2021, 01:06:27 AM

Hahaha. It’s still not insured if the government, or the bank themselves enable their “freeze function” on your account. Not your keys, not your money.

Any custodial solution they could be required to "freeze" someone's funds no matter what form they are in unless and this is a big one, they keep it hidden underneath their mattress. So all other things being equal, I prefer something to be insured. That way as long as the government and bank don't sieze my cash, it belongs to me! And if the bank happened to go bankrupt the government would step in and pay me back.

Quote

Then what function would a “freeze feature” be of use, if the key holder is in full control of the coins?

if bitcoin has the ability to allow people to freeze things at the UTXO level (in a certain sense) then I dont see why it is such a stretch to want to be able to freeze things at the ADDRESS level. not alot of people probably using the UTXO level freezing feature but it is there.

ABCbits

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:54:06 PM

Quote from: Pmalek on August 24, 2021, 03:25:20 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 23, 2021, 10:17:43 PM

You can't clone my credit card.

Ever heard of credit card skimming?

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

Ever heard of credit card shimming?

See https://www.zdnet.com/article/researchers-create-magstripe-versions-of-emv-and-contactless-cards/

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:59:53 PM

Maybe I should open a new thread and entitle it "How to implment a freezing function in bitcoin" what do you think? Then we could talk about how to make that happen! See because CLTV freezes utxos. So freezing is not unheard of. It's just...

So far no one able to show their idea about to implementing "freeze" function without 3rd party, using same private key (to generate address) or other hack. So i doubt we'll see new idea.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 10:30:29 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 24, 2021, 05:18:16 AM

Then sorry, Bitcoin is “only” an open source project that companies can build on top of it. If you can’t find a Bitcoin service/company with the UI, or the “freeze feature” that you like, then continue using your government-insured bank account’s credit/debit card. Cool

Well I think that's kind of the point isn't it? There is no such service/company.

That’s not Bitcoin’s fault.

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Anyone you hand over your private keys to makes your bitcoin way more insecure than it would be if you just kept control of it yourself.

Insecure like trusting your bank to hold your money for you?

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You acted like their are companies out there that you can actually hand over your bitcoin to and it's no big issue.

It is a big issue. That’s why I told you the comparison between Bitcoin and staying with your bank because of the “freeze function” is stupid.

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Well maybe it isnt for you but I have standards one of them is it has to be insured by the government why is that so hard to appreciate?

Hahaha. It’s still not insured if the government, or the bank themselves enable their “freeze function” on your account. Not your keys, not your money.

Quote

And besides, the title of the thread isnt "who can I hand over my bitcoin to so that I can freeze it whenever I wish". If such a company existed, then there is also the chance that they might put a freeze on your bitcoin without your permission as well. Or they might go out of business. Or get hacked. The list is endless. just like the postings on this thread Grin

Then what function would a “freeze feature” be of use, if the key holder is in full control of the coins?

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 24, 2021, 04:09:02 AM

I think we've answered why Bitcoin does not have a freezing function from the very first page. Larry is constantly trying to refute others' valid arguments and the others restate their arguments to refute Larry's utopian proposal.

It's a loop.

Yes I agree you have all given it your best shot about why bitcoin doesn't have a freezing function. Maybe I should open a new thread and entitle it "How to implment a freezing function in bitcoin" what do you think? Then we could talk about how to make that happen! See because CLTV freezes utxos. So freezing is not unheard of. It's just...

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Pmalek on August 24, 2021, 03:25:20 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 23, 2021, 10:17:43 PM

You can't clone my credit card.

Ever heard of credit card skimming?

Ever heard of cards with chips in them?

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 23, 2021, 10:17:43 PM

That's unimportant at this point. We aren't discussing potential punishments.

Actually it's quite relevant as to why it's much riskier to try and steal peoples' credit cards and use them than to steal peoples' bitcoin. Their's more laws on the books I would imagine. Stealing crypto you just get a slap on the wrist perhaps.

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Bitcoin isn't insured by the US government or anyone else either. Do you trust and use it?

Of course it's not. But everyone here seems to think the only way to have a freeze feature is if bitcoin gets hooked up with a financial institution/"trusted" bank which doesn't make any sense because then you don't even own your bitcoin because you handed it over to them lol. Do I trust and use it? I trust its security but use it for what exactly, I personally haven't found a real use case for it. Anything that I could do with bitcoin, I could do cheaper possibly more efficiently a different way. Maybe in the future though.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 24, 2021, 05:18:16 AM

Then sorry, Bitcoin is “only” an open source project that companies can build on top of it. If you can’t find a Bitcoin service/company with the UI, or the “freeze feature” that you like, then continue using your government-insured bank account’s credit/debit card. Cool

Well I think that's kind of the point isn't it? There is no such service/company. Anyone you hand over your private keys to makes your bitcoin way more insecure than it would be if you just kept control of it yourself. You acted like their are companies out there that you can actually hand over your bitcoin to and it's no big issue. Well maybe it isnt for you but I have standards one of them is it has to be insured by the government why is that so hard to appreciate? And besides, the title of the thread isnt "who can I hand over my bitcoin to so that I can freeze it whenever I wish". If such a company existed, then there is also the chance that they might put a freeze on your bitcoin without your permission as well. Or they might go out of business. Or get hacked. The list is endless. just like the postings on this thread Grin

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 24, 2021, 01:38:39 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 24, 2021, 12:27:30 AM

OP, you want a “freeze feature” that works as closely like that to your credit/debit card account issued by your bank? Find a Bitcoin service that holds your all your keys for you, that also has developed as nice UI/UX. Bitcoin might not be user-friendly, but it works as intended and has always upheld it’s main value proposition.

that's easy to say but i don't know of any bitcoin service like that. unless my deposits are insured with them by the united states government then i can't really trust it. sorry.

Then sorry, Bitcoin is “only” an open source project that companies can build on top of it. If you can’t find a Bitcoin service/company with the UI, or the “freeze feature” that you like, then continue using your government-insured bank account’s credit/debit card. Cool

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

I think we've answered why Bitcoin does not have a freezing function from the very first page. Larry is constantly trying to refute others' valid arguments and the others restate their arguments to refute Larry's utopian proposal.

It's a loop.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on August 23, 2021, 11:14:41 PM

all the pin/password does it secure the wallet ON THAT DEVICE. doesn't stop someone from importing the seed onto some other device and using a brand new password

You keep changing the goalposts as to what you are trying to achieve and what attack vectors you are trying to protect against. If you are concerned about someone stealing your seed phrase, then simply extend it with a long and complex passphrase. This is different to the password which is only used locally to access your wallet file, and is instead combined with the seed phrase when deriving your private keys. If someone steals your seed phrase, they can still recover it but will recover a completely different wallet to the one which is recovered when also using your passphrase. Indeed, they won't even know that a passphrased wallet exists.

Or, you can also use the multi-sig setup I've described earlier in this thread. If someone steals one of the seed phrases, they can't do anything without also stealing a second seed phrase.

Topic: Why doesn't bitcoin have a "freeze" function? (Read 1645 times)