You guys are smart. I'm always humbled by the intelligence of the bitcoin community.
I haven't read the ripple white paper yet. Maybe I will this weekend if I feel
compelled.
It sounds like there MIGHT be some value in the ripple network, although so far it sounds vague and theoretical.
I still don't get how or why I would use this thing!
1. It's not a bitcoin-like cryptocurrency (obviously)
2. I can wire fiat money wherever I want to, from my local bank (or by phone) and they
will convert it to a foreign currency if I want. Does ripple do this any better?
Is it even possible today?
3. I certainly don't need ripple for buying coins or taking coin payments online (coinbase or bitpay does that just fine)
4. The only other use case I can think of (for me) is taking online payments in some fashion (similar to SEPA), and I've been told that will be possible only in the future when more services are built.
Topic: Why has Ripple decreased so much in Market cap? Used to be second to Bitcoin - page 2. (Read 5373 times)
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
April 19, 2014, 08:03:54 AM
April 19, 2014, 04:04:46 AM
Bitcoin is a paradigm shift but its distribution (marketing) scheme is very problematic. I know you thought my post was TL;DR. But I think the problem is you don't quite understand the economics of banking & money which I was trying to explain
De-centralized banking --> Not new
Metallism money theory --> Not new
Public Ledger --> New
Ripple is not paradigm shift like bitcoin but it takes the most innovative thing about bitcoin and applying that to the ACTUAL banking practices.
I can't think of a good metaphor. But suppose when MP3s was invented some idealists had big ideas about revolutionizing the music industry. But it wasn't until iTunes that MP3s became mainstream. It didn't disrupt the status quo. Sure it might have given a spotlight to some underground musicians that couldn't have happened befoe MP3s. But probably the effect of MP3s was it increased the overall market size so you have more Katy Perrys & Justin Biebers as a result.
Crypto is exciting but most of the players are too focussed on bitcoin. Ripple to me has the correct attitude to take crypto mainstream. Only time will tell if they can do it or not. They have the right attitude to attract incumbent institutions
De-centralized banking --> Not new
Metallism money theory --> Not new
Public Ledger --> New
Ripple is not paradigm shift like bitcoin but it takes the most innovative thing about bitcoin and applying that to the ACTUAL banking practices.
I can't think of a good metaphor. But suppose when MP3s was invented some idealists had big ideas about revolutionizing the music industry. But it wasn't until iTunes that MP3s became mainstream. It didn't disrupt the status quo. Sure it might have given a spotlight to some underground musicians that couldn't have happened befoe MP3s. But probably the effect of MP3s was it increased the overall market size so you have more Katy Perrys & Justin Biebers as a result.
Crypto is exciting but most of the players are too focussed on bitcoin. Ripple to me has the correct attitude to take crypto mainstream. Only time will tell if they can do it or not. They have the right attitude to attract incumbent institutions
April 19, 2014, 03:50:08 AM
^ amen.
it IS brilliant and no one in the ripple community is taking anything away from bitcoin. without bitcoin, this whole movement wouldn't have taken place.
as for this:
i personally don't like the idea of hoarding xrp. they should be used rather than being held in order for it to fulfill its role in the network. but i do encourage people to try ripple out. it is an awesome piece of technology.
being as smart as you are, i am pretty sure you will figure it all out sooner or later. i've seen people less smart do so.
it IS brilliant and no one in the ripple community is taking anything away from bitcoin. without bitcoin, this whole movement wouldn't have taken place.
as for this:
Quote
And from the perspective of a speculator or cryptocurrency investor, why do I care about ripples since "ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name." They are probably not an ideal store of value.
i personally don't like the idea of hoarding xrp. they should be used rather than being held in order for it to fulfill its role in the network. but i do encourage people to try ripple out. it is an awesome piece of technology.
Quote
It's funny. There's been a few moments in my life when I've been completely mind-blown by pure brilliance. The first was when I understood Fourier's theory that any function could be composed of an infinite series of sinusoids. The second was when I learned how JC Maxwell took the equations for electricity and the equations for magnetism, and showed that they predicted that there should exist electromagnetic waves that propagate at a speed equal to the speed of light measured by Michelson and Morley--he inferred that light was in fact an electromagnetic wave!
being as smart as you are, i am pretty sure you will figure it all out sooner or later. i've seen people less smart do so.
April 19, 2014, 03:27:42 AM
- Ripple is a system for exchanging IOUs that obfuscates counter-party risk,
- ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name.
The first part is slightly wrong (the "obfuscates" part), Ripple even makes it much easier to assess counterparty risk, you have to enter your counterparty that holds your assets for any trade (except for XRP, where the network itself is the counterparty, like BTC on Bitcoin). "Rippling" (the automatic 1:1 trading of 2 currencies in the same denomination e.g. BTC/Bitstamp and BTC/TradeFortress) is disabled by default in the client now for quite some time.- ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name.
I would have phrased the second part differently because the same "essentially valueless" applies to BTC too, since they are not backed by anything and thus only have utility, not value. "Misleading name" is a bit weird, because I'm not sure where a name should "lead" to instead, I agree though that something like "Droplets" or something else would have made it easier to understand that XRP != Ripple. Other systems like Mastercoin for example though don't even seem to care about clearing this confusion...
It seems to me this Tl;dr is slightly cynical/negative and I would recommend to think about how a similar Tl;dr would apply to Bitcoin... and this is coming from someone who (based on your time of signing up here) very likely holds more BTC than you do.
Like I said one post above, how can I evaluate the counter-party risk? Also, I'm still not convinced that the IOU credit risk is just a function of the gateway's credit worthiness. Don't gateways swap IOUs? Isn't that the whole point? So wouldn't I need to also trust MtGox's or RBS's assessment of their counter-party's credit worthiness? And what about the counter-parties of the counter-parties, ad infinitum. This is what I mean when I say "Ripple is a system for exchanging IOUs that obfuscates counter-party risk."
No, gateways do not swap anything. This is the job for market makers (seriously, read the whitepaper that tokeweed linked!) and while gateways can make their own markets, it is by far not a requirement for them to do so and it is also (as anything in Ripple) easy to see they do and to what extent.Thanks Sukrim. You seem to be an honest person. But quite frankly, people have been talking to me about Ripple since I learned about bitcoin in March 2013; I've read about it, researched it, thought about it, but I guess I still don't understand it. After tonight I care even less.
It's funny. There's been a few moments in my life when I've been completely mind-blown by pure brilliance. The first was when I understood Fourier's theory that any function could be composed of an infinite series of sinusoids. The second was when I learned how JC Maxwell took the equations for electricity and the equations for magnetism, and showed that they predicted that there should exist electromagnetic waves that propagate at a speed equal to the speed of light measured by Michelson and Morley--he inferred that light was in fact an electromagnetic wave!
The third was when I read Satoshi's white paper.
Bitcoin is brilliant because it is simple.
April 19, 2014, 03:10:30 AM
- Ripple is a system for exchanging IOUs that obfuscates counter-party risk,
- ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name.
The first part is slightly wrong (the "obfuscates" part), Ripple even makes it much easier to assess counterparty risk, you have to enter your counterparty that holds your assets for any trade (except for XRP, where the network itself is the counterparty, like BTC on Bitcoin). "Rippling" (the automatic 1:1 trading of 2 currencies in the same denomination e.g. BTC/Bitstamp and BTC/TradeFortress) is disabled by default in the client now for quite some time.- ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name.
I would have phrased the second part differently because the same "essentially valueless" applies to BTC too, since they are not backed by anything and thus only have utility, not value. "Misleading name" is a bit weird, because I'm not sure where a name should "lead" to instead, I agree though that something like "Droplets" or something else would have made it easier to understand that XRP != Ripple. Other systems like Mastercoin for example though don't even seem to care about clearing this confusion...
It seems to me this Tl;dr is slightly cynical/negative and I would recommend to think about how a similar Tl;dr would apply to Bitcoin... and this is coming from someone who (based on your time of signing up here) very likely holds more BTC than you do.
Like I said one post above, how can I evaluate the counter-party risk? Also, I'm still not convinced that the IOU credit risk is just a function of the gateway's credit worthiness. Don't gateways swap IOUs? Isn't that the whole point? So wouldn't I need to also trust MtGox's or RBS's assessment of their counter-party's credit worthiness? And what about the counter-parties of the counter-parties, ad infinitum. This is what I mean when I say "Ripple is a system for exchanging IOUs that obfuscates counter-party risk."
No, gateways do not swap anything. This is the job for market makers (seriously, read the whitepaper that tokeweed linked!) and while gateways can make their own markets, it is by far not a requirement for them to do so and it is also (as anything in Ripple) easy to see they do and to what extent. April 19, 2014, 03:04:37 AM
peter,
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
With bitcoin it is simple: Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash system that allows users to store, transport and exchange funds with other users across the world, without the assistance of a third party or the permission of an authority. There is no counter-party risk.
Its great if both people want to exchange BTC wallet-to-wallet. But suppose you want to send BTC-->EU? Don't you think that Ripple meets your need?
Like I said one post above, how can I evaluate the counter-party risk? Also, I'm still not convinced that the IOU credit risk is just a function of the gateway's credit worthiness. Don't gateways swap IOUs? Isn't that the whole point? So wouldn't I need to also trust MtGox's or RBS's assessment of their counter-party's credit worthiness? And what about the counter-parties of the counter-parties, ad infinitum. This is what I mean when I say "Ripple is a system for exchanging IOUs that obfuscates counter-party risk."
And from the perspective of a speculator or cryptocurrency investor, why do I care about ripples since "ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name." They are probably not an ideal store of value.
April 19, 2014, 03:00:56 AM
peter,
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
With bitcoin it is simple: Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash system that allows users to store, transport and exchange funds with other users across the world, without the assistance of a third party or the permission of an authority. There is no counter-party risk.
Its great if both people want to exchange BTC wallet-to-wallet. But suppose you want to send BTC-->EU? Don't you think that Ripple meets your need?
April 19, 2014, 02:45:08 AM
peter,
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
I think probably neither. How can I evaluate the counter-party risk in either case? Also, I'm still not convinced that the IOU credit risk is just a function of the gateway's credit worthiness. Don't gateways swap IOUs? Isn't that the whole point? So wouldn't I need to also trust MtGox's or RBS's assessment of their counter-party's credit worthiness? And what about the counter-parties of the counter-parties, ad infinitum. This is what I mean when I say "Ripple is a system for exchanging IOUs that obfuscates counter-party risk."
It seems to me that this is actually a lot worse than our current highly-leveraged and debt-based fiat system.
With bitcoin it is simple: Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash system that allows users to store, transport and exchange funds with other users across the world, without the assistance of a third party or the permission of an authority. There is no counter-party risk.
April 19, 2014, 02:34:31 AM
just found the youtube video about how ripple finds solutions to the issues facing bitcoin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRgfC61Gc3E
enjoy.
enjoy.
April 19, 2014, 02:05:49 AM
peter,
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
and
"xrp as a valueless token."
is as it should be in my eyes. how can xrp fulfill its function if it is being hoarded? xrp should be used mostly by market makers to provide liquidity in the network, so that it would be easier for ripple to path find the cheapest rates when converting and sending currencies.
but the reality of it is there will always be speculators.
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
and
"xrp as a valueless token."
is as it should be in my eyes. how can xrp fulfill its function if it is being hoarded? xrp should be used mostly by market makers to provide liquidity in the network, so that it would be easier for ripple to path find the cheapest rates when converting and sending currencies.
but the reality of it is there will always be speculators.
No it can't be valueless otherwise it can't serve its function as either antispam or as an intermediate currency. There has to be value for trading it or burning it to mean anything. Forgive me if I'm getting the function wrong, but really a valueless token can't serve any purpose.
Correct. It can't be entirely valueless otherwise it can't facilitate the exchange of IOUs. Tokeweed misquoted me. The original quote was "ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name" which I believe is accurate as a ripple is a different animal than a satoshi on bitcoin's unforgeable blockchain and the name confuses people with Ripple IOUs on its hawala network. A ripple is probably not an ideal store of value.
April 19, 2014, 02:02:39 AM
ripple = electronic fiat = centralized = rubbish
If you want proof of stake (premined) use NXT
Ripple is like E-gold without gold how useless!!!!!!!!!!
If you want proof of stake (premined) use NXT
Ripple is like E-gold without gold how useless!!!!!!!!!!
Use XNF (NoFiatCoin) through the ripple network. Its backed by gold. For Real. My investment doubled in weeks
April 19, 2014, 01:42:25 AM
peter, sorry for wording it out wrong. what i meant with valueless is xrp is not made to be an instrument for speculation and its primary function is not as a store of value.
also watch the video in this link: https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6304&hilit=body+language&sid=87cd50721d7b3186a0d143d81357076a#p44419
ripple provides elegant, out of the box solutions for the issues and problems facing bitcoin.
also watch the video in this link: https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6304&hilit=body+language&sid=87cd50721d7b3186a0d143d81357076a#p44419
ripple provides elegant, out of the box solutions for the issues and problems facing bitcoin.
April 19, 2014, 01:39:40 AM
peter,
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
and
"xrp as a valueless token."
is as it should be in my eyes. how can xrp fulfill its function if it is being hoarded? xrp should be used mostly by market makers to provide liquidity in the network, so that it would be easier for ripple to path find the cheapest rates when converting and sending currencies.
but the reality of it is there will always be speculators.
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
and
"xrp as a valueless token."
is as it should be in my eyes. how can xrp fulfill its function if it is being hoarded? xrp should be used mostly by market makers to provide liquidity in the network, so that it would be easier for ripple to path find the cheapest rates when converting and sending currencies.
but the reality of it is there will always be speculators.
No it can't be valueless otherwise it can't serve its function as either antispam or as an intermediate currency. There has to be value for trading it or burning it to mean anything. Forgive me if I'm getting the function wrong, but really a valueless token can't serve any purpose.
April 19, 2014, 01:38:18 AM
peter,
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
and
"xrp as a valueless token."
is as it should be in my eyes. how can xrp fulfill its function if it is being hoarded? xrp should be used mostly by market makers to provide liquidity in the network, so that it would be easier for ripple to path find the cheapest rates when converting and sending currencies.
but the reality of it is there will always be speculators.
ripple uses gateway iou's, yes. an iou is only as good as the gateway. so let's say the royal bank of scotland and mt.gox become gateways, which of the two would you rather use?
and
"xrp as a valueless token."
is as it should be in my eyes. how can xrp fulfill its function if it is being hoarded? xrp should be used mostly by market makers to provide liquidity in the network, so that it would be easier for ripple to path find the cheapest rates when converting and sending currencies.
but the reality of it is there will always be speculators.
April 19, 2014, 01:30:50 AM
...
NWO, is this an accurate summary in your opinion?
- Ripple is a system for exchanging IOUs that obfuscates counter-party risk,
- ripples are an essentially valueless token with a misleading name.
April 19, 2014, 01:28:08 AM
yeah, the quick transfer time is what makes people use ripple even more imo. and the network provides out of the box solutions for the issues and problems facing bitcoin. link to the video of chris larsen talking about these solutions can be seen here: https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6304&hilit=body+language&sid=87cd50721d7b3186a0d143d81357076a#p44419
just give it a chance guys.
just give it a chance guys.
April 19, 2014, 01:18:07 AM
BTC transfer time = 60 minutes
LTC transfer time = 15 minutes
XRP transfer time = instant
Have fun with your archaic technologies! Even though 3/4 of these Ripple hate accounts are just TradeFortress sock puppets.
LTC transfer time = 15 minutes
XRP transfer time = instant
Have fun with your archaic technologies! Even though 3/4 of these Ripple hate accounts are just TradeFortress sock puppets.
April 19, 2014, 12:55:39 AM
Quote
I would treat it as valueless token.
as it should be in my eyes. how can xrp fulfill its function if it is being hoarded? xrp should be used mostly by market makers to provide liquidity in the network, so that it would be easier for ripple to path find the cheapest rates when converting and sending currencies.
April 19, 2014, 12:48:26 AM
April 19, 2014, 12:47:45 AM
@ Peter R
That's what I got from reading their website. I'm not trying to pump Ripple or anything like that. I find their proposal intriguing so I want to understand it myself.
1) I think that is partially correct. They say the Ripple network is designed to exchange money. All money as essentially IOUs but it misleading to say like that. In their primer they say there is same counter party risk at the "gateway". So depends if your "gateway" is Citibank or Mt Gox. You should decide based on reputation I suppose. But they do claim that there is no counter party risk when using XRP as a "bridge currency". If you use Ripple to transfer USD-->XRP-->EU, there is no counter party risk
2) XRP is a currency to be used as bridge if the network can't find a market maker to facilitate the exchange. There is a current exchange rate 1 XRP = 0.0063 USD. But they say their priority is adoption rather than investment. I would treat it as valueless token.
That's what I got from reading their website. I'm not trying to pump Ripple or anything like that. I find their proposal intriguing so I want to understand it myself.
1) I think that is partially correct. They say the Ripple network is designed to exchange money. All money as essentially IOUs but it misleading to say like that. In their primer they say there is same counter party risk at the "gateway". So depends if your "gateway" is Citibank or Mt Gox. You should decide based on reputation I suppose. But they do claim that there is no counter party risk when using XRP as a "bridge currency". If you use Ripple to transfer USD-->XRP-->EU, there is no counter party risk
2) XRP is a currency to be used as bridge if the network can't find a market maker to facilitate the exchange. There is a current exchange rate 1 XRP = 0.0063 USD. But they say their priority is adoption rather than investment. I would treat it as valueless token.
Jump to: