Why I say X11 and SHA3 are not ASIC resistent ? - page 2.

IloveAnonCoin

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Quote from: markm on March 30, 2014, 09:12:20 AM

But there is no point because we already have a primary hashing algorithm (SHA256) and a backup in case it turns out there is some fatal flaw in SHA256 (scrypt).

Is another backup really needed before any fatal flaw has been found in either of those algorithms?

Kids will go and play with their toy mining machines spamming the world with endless variations of toy coins, meanwhile serious finance can be done using serious blackchains that have serious amounts of hashing power securing them, and maybe even also using no proof of work required systems if any of those turn out to actually be secure.

I suppose though that if scrypt really is inefficient compared to something else (maybe SHA3 or somesuch) making ASICs for a more efficient algorithm to use as a backup algorithm might make sense.

-MarkM-

I agree with you.

markm

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But there is no point because we already have a primary hashing algorithm (SHA256) and a backup in case it turns out there is some fatal flaw in SHA256 (scrypt).

Is another backup really needed before any fatal flaw has been found in either of those algorithms?

Kids will go and play with their toy mining machines spamming the world with endless variations of toy coins, meanwhile serious finance can be done using serious blackchains that have serious amounts of hashing power securing them, and maybe even also using no proof of work required systems if any of those turn out to actually be secure.

I suppose though that if scrypt really is inefficient compared to something else (maybe SHA3 or somesuch) making ASICs for a more efficient algorithm to use as a backup algorithm might make sense.

-MarkM-

IloveAnonCoin

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Quote from: softron on March 30, 2014, 08:46:37 AM

So someone can also make asics for sha3, x11.

Yesssss !!!, and they can make it right now, if they want.

softron

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So someone can also make asics for sha3, x11.

IloveAnonCoin

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Take a look at this topic : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-would-you-support-a-litecoin-ltc-to-x11-algorithm-hardfork-549592

IloveAnonCoin

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Quote from: smilecoin23 on March 29, 2014, 05:09:08 AM

Thanks to my doubts, or I will be concealed for a long time.

smilecoin23

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Thanks to my doubts, or I will be concealed for a long time.

IloveAnonCoin

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Quote from: hammerbrain on March 29, 2014, 02:08:20 AM

Quote from: Gazza1 on March 28, 2014, 07:44:21 AM

Quote from: MaGNeT on March 27, 2014, 05:36:49 PM

It's possible to create an ASIC for every algo but for now 1 thing is sure: there are ASIC's coming for scrypt and they will move the GPU miners away from scryptcoins into new algo's.
The same happened to SHA256D coins, like Bitcoin.

I don't expect an X11 ASIC very soon so it will be the profit algo of 2014. And that's what miners care about: profit.

I'm on board. My GPUs will only use X11 for a while now. Half power, way cooler temps, less noise. awesome this is great Cheesy

+1 Absolutely....obviously the future...half the power consumption alone is a win.

The only people against alt-algos are holding LTC,DOGE, etc, and hoping asics will cause them to blow them up in value.

Everyone's got an agenda these days. Cheesy

Quote from: Amph on March 28, 2014, 03:34:21 AM

Quote from: IloveAnonCoin on March 27, 2014, 08:51:12 PM

Quote from: r0ach on March 27, 2014, 08:41:28 PM

Facts:

- A currency needs high liquidity to be a valid currency

- High market penetration gives you high liquidity

- ASICs give you CRAP for market penetration.

- Dogecoin would have gone nowhere and had 0 market pentration as Sha256.

If an ASIC is to exist at all for a currency, it is not healthy for it to occur till at least the first halving or 50% of it being mined in order to somewhat maximize market penetration.

The current Darkcoin algorithm at least delays ASIC until the coin has substantial value due to cost of creating them for 11 algos.

I got your point, but what is the different between x11 coins and Bitcoin if you said as above ?
Again, my point is STOP using ASIC resistant word if your coins using x11 or SHA3. it is false advertising.

i agree that asic resistant or anti-asic are unhappy words, a correct word would be ASIC DETERRENT

InsertUsernameHere

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X11 just seems like a bloaware algorithm to me.

hammerbrain

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Quote from: Gazza1 on March 28, 2014, 07:44:21 AM

Quote from: MaGNeT on March 27, 2014, 05:36:49 PM

It's possible to create an ASIC for every algo but for now 1 thing is sure: there are ASIC's coming for scrypt and they will move the GPU miners away from scryptcoins into new algo's.
The same happened to SHA256D coins, like Bitcoin.

I don't expect an X11 ASIC very soon so it will be the profit algo of 2014. And that's what miners care about: profit.

I'm on board. My GPUs will only use X11 for a while now. Half power, way cooler temps, less noise. awesome this is great Cheesy

+1 Absolutely....obviously the future...half the power consumption alone is a win.

The only people against alt-algos are holding LTC,DOGE, etc, and hoping asics will cause them to blow them up in value.

Everyone's got an agenda these days. Cheesy

TanteStefana

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The Future Of Work

Quote from: IloveAnonCoin on March 27, 2014, 05:20:19 PM

I saw many altcoins say they are ASIC resistant because of X11 and SHA3. First time, I saw this statement, I decided to keep quite a while, because I think no one will believe that, turn out I saw much topics that claim X11 and SHA3 are algorithm for ASIC resistant. I think before this believes go wire spread more than the current situation, I need to do something. To let people know, what they are believe is TOTALLY wrong......WHY ?

X11 and SHA3 ( Keccak ) are not ASIC resistant at ALL, according to NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology), if an algorithm wants to become SHA3 candidate during that time; one thing that algorithm must have is it need to be able to create by ASIC. AND every algorithm in X11 used to be SHA3 candidate until Keccak wins the competition and become SHA3.

Reference paper : http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Round2/Aug2010/documents/papers/SCHAUMONT_SHA3.pdf

I hope, this is the topic will help someone who got misunderstanding that X11 and SHA3 are ASIC resistant change they believe before it will repeat step Bitcoin.

Here is the reponse from Darkcoin dev

Quote from: eduffield on March 27, 2014, 12:30:54 PM

Quote from: IloveAnonCoin on March 25, 2014, 03:40:23 AM

X11 and SHA3 ( Keccak ) are not ASIC resistant at all, according to NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology), if you want to become SHA3 candidate, you need to be able to create by ASIC. AND every algorithms in X11 used to be SHA3 candidate until Keccak win the competition and become SHA3.

Here is the paper : http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/sha-3/Round2/Aug2010/documents/papers/SCHAUMONT_SHA3.pdf

The whole point of X11 is to try and get the same network growth cycle as Bitcoin. Once Darkcoin is worth enough, people will invest the capital to create the ASICs. I never really had an issue with that, in fact that was the point of creating a new hashing algorithm, I think it will be healthy in the end to move to ASICs.

Dear, they are called ASIC resistant not proof. It would be a total pita to make an ASIC for X-11, though it can and will be done when the market pressures are high enough. What Evan was attempting to do was to give Darkcoin a few years, if possible, of ASIC free mining. Only time will tell if he gets that many years.

Oops, I just realized you quoted Evan. I guess I'm not quite understanding your point. But ok, all's well

lamontweaver

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The whole point of ASIC resistant is to fight the first wave of ASIC SCRYPT miners and to make it difficult and expensive for the ASIC manufacturers to replace all GPU mining. No one is claiming ASIC proof. Anything is possible with enough money and effort. ASIC resistant is trying to make it impractical and unprofitable.

IloveAnonCoin

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Quote from: digitalindustry on March 28, 2014, 01:37:35 AM

Um children-

its not about the individual algo being ASIC resistant as thats basically impossible .

cPoW (of which x11 is)

is about two primary vectors:

1. A mix of algos (for complexity)

and

2. distribution time.

so no x11 is not ASIC resistant if its put into a currency with 100 years of primary distribution , but with a moderate to fast distribution is.

What are you talking about ?

IloveAnonCoin

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Quote from: Amph on March 28, 2014, 03:34:21 AM

Quote from: IloveAnonCoin on March 27, 2014, 08:51:12 PM

Quote from: r0ach on March 27, 2014, 08:41:28 PM

Facts:

- A currency needs high liquidity to be a valid currency

- High market penetration gives you high liquidity

- ASICs give you CRAP for market penetration.

- Dogecoin would have gone nowhere and had 0 market pentration as Sha256.

If an ASIC is to exist at all for a currency, it is not healthy for it to occur till at least the first halving or 50% of it being mined in order to somewhat maximize market penetration.

The current Darkcoin algorithm at least delays ASIC until the coin has substantial value due to cost of creating them for 11 algos.

I got your point, but what is the different between x11 coins and Bitcoin if you said as above ?
Again, my point is STOP using ASIC resistant word if your coins using x11 or SHA3. it is false advertising.

i agree that asic resistant or anti-asic are unhappy words, a correct word would be ASIC DETERRENT

ASIC DETERRENT, I like it.

Quote from: DemetriusAstroBlack on March 28, 2014, 01:55:58 AM

Second definition for resistance from mw:
re·sis·tance, effort made to stop or to fight against someone or something

Where does it say its guaranteed and in the future will remain? I feel like we are just arguing over the definition of the word. I think it is safe to say that LTC is no longer asic resistant unless they announce they are making an EFFORT to change.

I agree with you too

but at least they make an effort

Gazza1

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Quote from: MaGNeT on March 27, 2014, 05:36:49 PM

It's possible to create an ASIC for every algo but for now 1 thing is sure: there are ASIC's coming for scrypt and they will move the GPU miners away from scryptcoins into new algo's.
The same happened to SHA256D coins, like Bitcoin.

I don't expect an X11 ASIC very soon so it will be the profit algo of 2014. And that's what miners care about: profit.

I'm on board. My GPUs will only use X11 for a while now. Half power, way cooler temps, less noise. awesome this is great Cheesy

Amph

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Quote from: IloveAnonCoin on March 27, 2014, 08:51:12 PM

Quote from: r0ach on March 27, 2014, 08:41:28 PM

Facts:

- A currency needs high liquidity to be a valid currency

- High market penetration gives you high liquidity

- ASICs give you CRAP for market penetration.

- Dogecoin would have gone nowhere and had 0 market pentration as Sha256.

If an ASIC is to exist at all for a currency, it is not healthy for it to occur till at least the first halving or 50% of it being mined in order to somewhat maximize market penetration.

The current Darkcoin algorithm at least delays ASIC until the coin has substantial value due to cost of creating them for 11 algos.

I got your point, but what is the different between x11 coins and Bitcoin if you said as above ?
Again, my point is STOP using ASIC resistant word if your coins using x11 or SHA3. it is false advertising.

i agree that asic resistant or anti-asic are unhappy words, a correct word would be ASIC DETERRENT

markm

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Why would the people who buy coins want them to be hard to mine?

Only the miners want that, for everyone else it is simply an artificially vulnerable blockchain.

So sure the guys selling "vaults" for securing money want to sell wet paper bags as "vaults" but the fact that scammers love to sell their wet paper bags as vaults does not make wet paper bags good secure ways to store secure and transfer wealth.

-MarkM-

speakoo

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what about scrypt-jane with N-factor , it needs RAM.
asic has no enough RAM , so Vertcoin and QQCoin and any other coins will go to the moon ?

dspair

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http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/meet-the-manic-miner-who-wants-to-mint-10-of-all-new-bitcoins/
5,000,000$ for 5% of the network hashrate. And BitFury owns even more. Nice "extra security for the network" and "decentralisation".

I'm starting to lose faith in bitcoin after reading about these huge ASIC farms.

foodies123

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As I've said before nscrypt x11 drk they're all a bunch of gimmicks and are being hyped for what they're not. They bring nothing to the crypto world. Even if they really were asic resistant they would still be bad, maybe even worst because denying asics would be denying extra security for the network. On the other hand there's the myriad project that runs 5 independent algorythms so while still welcoming asics it gives equal chances for gpus and cpus to mine along with them creating a more diverse and thus secure network.

Topic: Why I say X11 and SHA3 are not ASIC resistent ? - page 2. (Read 10209 times)