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Topic: Why I see bitcoin as a ponzi scheme - page 2. (Read 4100 times)

legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1561
December 22, 2014, 06:41:09 PM
#39
But I did research. I did attend a conference. I did seek other's opinions, at the event, and at after-parties and online. I've been called a 'troll' for disagreeing.


Just a side note. If there's something you don't understand about bitcoin (or anything else), if something doesn't make sense - just ask, start a thread like "I have a few questions about BTC", if you start with "bitcoin is a ponzi" and support your statement with completely missed arguments - people will see you as a troll (or paid FUDster).

Anyhow, welcome to the forum.
hero member
Activity: 743
Merit: 502
December 22, 2014, 06:31:36 PM
#38
While not intended to be an investment, BitCoin certainly can be treated as one.  In particular, it is a speculative investment.  This means if Bitcoin becomes more useful, it's value may increase.  If it turns out that the usefulness is overestimated by the investors, then the value may go down.  Speculative investments are not Ponzi schemes, though.  A speculative investment IS very risky and you could lose a great portion of your investment (even all of it).  This does not make it a scam, though.
I'm inclined to think that bitcoin is a ponzi scheme for a number of reasons:
1. Quality of a currency - It fails this for me in terms of lacking the tangibility of gold. Now people will say that gold or fiat is not 'tangible', but the guns that enforce currencies are, and the fact that millions of ignorant people want to adorn themselves with gold, makes it a value for at least the next 100 years. I guess you could argue its not an investment, but would you make that case? You're expecting/hoping the price to go up aren't you? Capital gain anyone? That makes it at least the illusion of an investment, if not an actual one. This makes it ripe for a 'dump & dump'. Now, I look at efforts by some people to avoid the liquidity problem like the bros in NY who are setting up a listed fund. Such efforts strike me as great ways to increase one's liquidity at other's expense. These are Harvard guys.
2. Bitcoin's usefulness - I've just been to a bitcoin conference in NZ. Unquestionably cryptocurrencies are 'useful'. The technology is amazing. This however does not mean 'coins' are valuable; only that the technology is useful. People will say the technology is the coin, but actually, one of its appeals is that it is scalable, open source, but that just means to be that it will be duplicated.
3. Bitcoin's evolution - Some critics to me at the conference told me that bitcoin can develop insofar as the protocol can be changed. I'd like to know more about this. How a consensus can be reached to change it, because it strikes me as a rubbery problem. My understanding talking to everyone was that 'all parties' (miners, developers, users, et al) have to be satisfied to make changes. I was also told that architecture-wise, some changes are very hard to make. I was told this by developers.
4. Inflation from mining - Bitcoin is limited to 21 million BTC. The implication is that there is 42% of inflation to arise over the next 10 years. That is plenty of timer for a new coin to develop without inflation. Why? No mining. Mining is a cost. I'm told that mining adds a cost of 10% to each coin, but that seems too high. Maybe they mean something else. Ultimately the cost is 42% over 10 years.
5. Redemption - There is a problem getting bitcoins into something I really need - cash. I've heard that its hard to get the currency you want; which strikes me as a liquidity issue. It seems likely that banks will create their own coins, and that these will get far greater credibility. They have 10 years before the inflation of mining expires with bitcoin.

I'm inclined to have more trust in a scheme like Bitreserve, though again I don't hold that because the price of gold is falling and because rather than buy ounces of gold, I can get shares in a stock with millions of ounces of gold valued at nothing, trading at less than their cash holding. Now, the gold price is $1200/oz, the mining cost if $800/oz, so I'm looking at upside of 300/25=1200% in a few years. Scope for better of worse of course. They have a 2nd great project, they might get nationalised, they might strike very high grade intersections. Like bitcoin, you need a technical understanding to have confidence.

The reason I think its a ponzi scheme is that I think developers, having invested in the development of their coin, they want a pay-out. I think anarcho-capitalists, as many are, ethically believe 'market rules', so if you can make money on this 'unregulated market', then why not. Ethically, I think it eases their conscience not to consider the negatives. Its only after I got to the after-party of the bitcoin conference did people seem to agree with me. Everyone at the conference was saying 'you're not a programmer'. True, but I'm more of a generalist than them. They conveyed little understanding of markets and psychology.

Feedback please.


GAWWWDDDD Im so tired of people like you.
Hey, I learned about bitcoin today at 8 am.. .it's 6 pm and I think i found a flaw!! feedback please??
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
December 22, 2014, 05:18:04 PM
#37
Bitcoin is not a scam but totally overpriced  Smiley It should be something like 2$ each  Smiley There's paypal so bitcoin is needed only in drug and weapon purchases  Smiley

hero member
Activity: 526
Merit: 500
December 22, 2014, 05:11:16 PM
#36
Feedback please.

No offence but you clearly don't know what a Ponzi scheme is in that case.   If you want to argue it has some properties of a ponzi, that's a huge stretch but all right.  If you say "Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme", nobody who knows anything about Bitcoin will take you seriously because that statement is clearly untrue.  Whether or not you like Bitcoin, it's not a Ponzi or an ice cream sandwhich or a nation state - your calling it one of those things won't make it true.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 22, 2014, 04:50:00 PM
#35
 
Bitcoin is not a scam but totally overpriced  Smiley It should be something like 2$ each  Smiley  


I assume you're trolling, because you can't possibly be that stupid.

There's really no such thing as "overpriced" or "underpriced".
Price is what buyers and sellers agree on..

Any lables are nothing more than personal opinions
that are mostly irrelevant to the market...
and this is even more true for something fungible like Bitcoin.



legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
December 22, 2014, 04:09:13 PM
#34
although i read the whole post of the OP.. as soon as i read the word 'tangible' i face planted my hand and came to the conclusion the OP does not understand bitcoin. or that of any investment tht is not commodity related..

tangibility is a concern for ONLY the commodities market. FIAT does not have to be tangible. stocks and shares dont have to be tangible. and neither does bitcoins or any other currency... in short welcome to the digital age.

this also goes towards the word intrinsic.. which again only the commodities market care about. bitcoin is an asset by its very definition, rather than a stock, share or commodity. and thus assets do not require to be tangible or intrinsic to still have value.

i feel the OP is a potato, wheat and oil trader and has only just moved across to asset/currency trading.

so i wish him luck and i hope he does further research
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
December 22, 2014, 03:56:45 PM
#33
Oh no, you're so close-minded, you poor OP.
Thanks for the feedback people. Don't know why anyone would consider me 'close-minded' for asking questions, and genuinely conveying some ignorance about certain facets of this complex tool. Like I say, I believe in the long term future of crypto-currencies.
Many people have alluded to the fact that 'crypto-currencies' are 'not ponzi schemes'. I was speaking metaphorically.
Many of these comments I heard at the conference and did not find them persuasive. Being a critic, one does tend to bear some 'heat' from people who don't like to hear it. I can appreciate that its re-iterated, as I'm a newbie to forums. But I did research. I did attend a conference. I did seek other's opinions, at the event, and at after-parties and online. I've been called a 'troll' for disagreeing.
If we can not agree that this is 'technically' a ponzi scheme, maybe we can say that there are parties who partake in the system to make money because money is involved, and they have a gross conflict of interest. Is there an undertaking to commit fraud? Certainly they are selling benefits. But its true, you could say the same about a 'scum' salesperson who only alludes to benefits. Certainly I hear a lot of 'good news'. Dnotes up 45% overnight. People believe in this stuff, as I believe in stocks, and I certainly 'believe in (say gold) stocks', until I don't. Of course I have reasons for this.

It is interesting that no one really spoke to much of the 'adaptability' of bitcoin. This seemed to be one of the most endearing 'potentials' of bitcoin. That it could change. No one commented on the consensus model. Grateful if someone knows. In the interim, I will look at those resources provided. Thank you.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
December 22, 2014, 03:52:53 PM
#32
Then the money you have in your bank is a ponzi.

And IRS take more and more TAX on your ... life BECAUSE state inject SPAM-FIAT in your seller.

Bitcoin solve many problem ... and the others problems will be solve because of the trust involve by Bitcoin about the "money for the people".

Actual money is for rich people not for the people.
legendary
Activity: 888
Merit: 1000
Monero - secure, private and untraceable currency.
December 22, 2014, 03:39:38 PM
#31
Oh no, you're so close-minded, you poor OP.
hero member
Activity: 1372
Merit: 783
better everyday ♥
December 22, 2014, 02:53:46 PM
#30
It's obvious the OP isn't as well versed learning about Bitcoin as he thinks he is.  Probably doesn't know how a true Ponzi scheme runs by definition.  If he had read more or asked questions here in this forum, he'd know Bitcoin couldn't be a ponzi scheme.

A good link to read:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/

There have been operators in the Crypto space that have ran illegal Bitcoin ponzi schemes, but the same can be said for regular money.


Bitcoin itself, is not a ponzi scheme. 
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 1824
December 22, 2014, 02:44:45 PM
#29
BTC is not a ponzi scheme, you can sell, buy BTC in various exchanges. Well at this stage you can not exchange BTC at banks - but this is future  Grin

In ponzi sheme just early members earn something.
Here, everybody can earn BTC, sell or buy and profit eventually when price go up.
We can't exchange BTC at banks but can use BTC ATM Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
December 22, 2014, 02:18:21 PM
#28
It's better than a pyramid scheme.



newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0
December 22, 2014, 12:43:00 PM
#27
1. I don't agree with any statement of the author;
2. Ponzi is an organization in which the income of the early investors are paid from later investors. Bitcoin a virtual currency and has nothing to do with Ponzi.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
December 22, 2014, 12:24:14 PM
#26
Think about it.  You need mining in order to process the transactions.  Just like the banking system uses their own telecommunication and server infrastructure when you are trying to get money out of an ATM or electronic EFT payment.   Mining to mint coins.  That can change.  But there has to be a reward for that work being done.  You will not have a network with fast transactions do it at no cost.  End of story
hero member
Activity: 639
Merit: 500
December 22, 2014, 11:50:51 AM
#25
New OP with this 1 post Roll Eyes

Why not use your real account? You might be taken seriously then.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
December 22, 2014, 11:48:20 AM
#24
Bitcoin is not a scam but totally overpriced  Smiley It should be something like 2$ each  Smiley There's paypal so bitcoin is needed only in drug and weapon purchases  Smiley
You're even worse than OP himself.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
December 22, 2014, 11:31:56 AM
#23
no where near  a ponzi scheme but have to agree with number 5 on yours list. Its to hard to get money in and out of btc still years later
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
December 22, 2014, 11:12:57 AM
#22
BTC is not a ponzi scheme, you can sell, buy BTC in various exchanges. Well at this stage you can not exchange BTC at banks - but this is future  Grin
legendary
Activity: 3052
Merit: 1273
December 22, 2014, 08:56:07 AM
#21
Then the money you have in your bank is a ponzi.

It most likely is, with most banks thee days operating on a fractional reserve. *Sigh*
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
December 22, 2014, 08:53:30 AM
#20
Bitcoin is not a scam but totally overpriced  Smiley It should be something like 2$ each  Smiley There's paypal so bitcoin is needed only in drug and weapon purchases  Smiley
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