Why is bitcoin regaining dominance? - page 2.

d5000

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Quote from: 1Referee on August 15, 2018, 06:17:12 AM

Quote from: d5000 on August 15, 2018, 12:15:54 AM

Coinfairvalue tries something like that, but has some pretty strange valuations ...

That site lost my interest instantly the moment I saw BCash's "fair" value is $900 instead of the current $500.

I don't think the page creator is a BCash fan. I guess he's still struggling with the algorithm. In an earlier version, for example, Bitcoin had a much higher valuation and BCash a lower one, but Stellar (if I remember right) had an almost as high "fair market cap" as Bitcoin Cheesy

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I still haven't totally grasped part of his mechanism, in particular the "basket" concept. I will look into it deeper when I've time.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 16, 2018, 01:59:07 AM

But would there be no effect on Bitcoin's re-growing dominance if there was enough altcoin "straight to fiat" liquidity? Because most of the altcoins do not have fiat markets, only Bitcoin markets.

I guess the "dominance-boosting" effect would be even stronger - altcoiners (or better: "shitcoiners", as not all altcoins are shit) would directly cash out to fiat and the altcoin price would go even faster near zero, without touching Bitcoin (Bitcoin also can be driven down by altcoin sellers cashing out via Bitcoin).

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How many more banks use Ripple?

Don't know. On their website they list four "testimonials", some of bigger banks like Santander (the German bank I mentioned isn't among them).

cellard

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Quote from: jseverson on August 14, 2018, 04:29:10 AM

Quote from: cryptoasr on August 14, 2018, 02:43:34 AM

I think people are turning their alts into bitcoin in the hope of ETF approval and bitcoin will rise and buy back their alts in much less satoshi than now.

That's pretty dead at the moment. I'm not sure where the optimism comes from.

If people have been dumping their alts (enough for this sea of red anyway) for Bitcoin, Bitcoin price should be surging. Instead, the $6000 support was broken for the first time in I don't even know how long. From those tidbits, one can probably conclude that money is leaving the market that and every coin is doing horribly, with Bitcoin much less so than alts.

The ETH will not get decided until well entered 2019, so there is still some hope in the mind of speculators adn noobs that it will get passed. I mean don't get me wrong, CBOE and SEC have a good relationship, but it actually passing is anotehr different story.

If I had to bet, I would bet that the ETF will not pass anytime soon, it will take years. The good news is, we don't even need an ETF or anything like that to go to the so called moon, it just speeds up the process.

I would like to think people have given up on altcoins, but I think the altcoin bubble will grow to trillions before it crashes and then BTC goes to a couple $million per coin.

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Quote from: okala on August 14, 2018, 02:38:33 AM

Bitcoin is regaining domination because ethereum and ripple that were doing very well before are now getting dump like never before. Many investors are flipping they holding to bitcoin.

Not only that, all altcoins on exchanges have trading pairs with BTC so selling altcoins always will make Bitcoin fall in a much slower pace. That's at least how I see and understand it.

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Quote from: d5000 on August 15, 2018, 04:57:17 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 15, 2018, 02:52:37 AM

Quote from: d5000 on August 14, 2018, 04:43:33 PM

Altcoins tend to grow in a disproportionate way in the last stages of a Bitcoin bull market.

Would that be because of the misplaced over-confidence by traders that the bull market will go on longer than they thought?

I also interpret it that way. Some traders may think it's only a "dip" in Bitcoin's otherwise bullish performance and try to "hedge", then they see that - caused by this effect - some altcoins temporarily perform much better than Bitcoin, and the domino effect comes in ...

Or maybe it is also their greed and their want to earn more Bitcoins in the middle of feeling over-confident.

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In contrast, in the latter half of the bear market, altcoins tend to crash heavily and lose almost all of their value. Many of them never see their position in the "market cap rankings" again, because in the next cycle usually new altcoins become the "divas" of the moment.

Would that be because of "capitulation" from altcoins? Most of the altcoins cannot be traded to fiat, but only with Bitcoin.

Yes, capitulation and the "new coinz of the block" effect Wink

I believe the real reason are the poor offerings (and perspectives) of the overwhelming majority of altcoins. Most altcoins do not really solve a problem or offer a "killer feature", but are hyped driven by all sorts of promises, and their price is only driven by speculation, not by actual usage. These "hype-coins" disappear after a cycle after lots of traders lose their money, or they become buried by the next hypecoin wave. And I'm not even talking about ICO tokens which are (often) far worse ...

But would there be no effect on Bitcoin's re-growing dominance if there was enough altcoin "straight to fiat" liquidity? Because most of the altcoins do not have fiat markets, only Bitcoin markets.

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XRP, as much as I consider it a centralized coin with a concept that doesn't really make sense, seems to have established itself in the top altcoin positions, just like Ethereum - it's one of the few coins never having fallen out of the Coinmarketcap top 10, since 2013. I think this is related to its banking-oriented ecosystem of users.

What users? Hahaha.

A German bank, for example, used it for cheap remittances to the US. Ripple is one of the few altcoins that see actually some usage, although the big transaction amount is mostly related to irrelevant exchange activities.

How many more banks use Ripple?

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Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on August 14, 2018, 02:14:22 AM

[IM G]http://i63.tinypic.com/osz6rp.jpg[/img]

We passed the 50% mark recently, and if we look at what happens today, almost all alts lose a lot and bitcoin just loses little in comparison.

Is it because when we have a bear market like now, people turn to bitcoin because it is more secure? I think the opposite happened with the bull market last december, people turned to fancy alts because they thought they could hit the next 10× or 100×.

Well, because when bitcoin price drops that is usually people leaving the crypto market in general. Of course there are people who hold altcoins and have zero bitcoins but the main general consensus is people have bitcoin but diversify their portfolio by having other coins. Which means when people are selling bitcoin they already sold their altcoins.

When bitcoin starts to gain some price increase that means money is getting back into bitcoin, however not to altcoins right away. Which causes bitcoin price to go up but altcoins to stay valued however lose value against bitcoin which makes bitcoin get a higher market dominance. We need bitcoin to get more volume and people to have a lot more bitcoin and price to go up and stay up before we see people regaining trust on altcoins and start reinvesting into those.

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Quote from: d5000 on August 15, 2018, 12:15:54 AM

By the way, I think we could get a better measure for a coin's "popularity" or "value" than "market cap" if we try to measure its transaction activity. Probably Bitcoin's "dominance" would be much higher. Coinfairvalue tries something like that, but has some pretty strange valuations ...

Do you mean trading volume? It doesn’t seem to be a bad idea. That’s usually done with stocks.

Quote from: 1Referee on August 15, 2018, 06:17:12 AM

That site lost my interest instantly the moment I saw BCash's "fair" value is $900 instead of the current $500.

I’ve been trying to guess how they calculate that “fair” value but bitcoin has more cap, more transactions, and a higher price than shitcoin cash and, however, according to them bitcoin is overvalued and shitcoin cash is undervalued. Can’t see the maths there. Maybe because of the price to earning ration but they are using what's used for stocks and I think it has nothing to do with cryptos.

Anyway, to calculate a “fair” value of a stock, people never use just one ratio and I suppose in the crypto market it should be done the same way.

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Quote from: sunanbonang on August 15, 2018, 06:26:08 AM

this is because the prices of altcoin, especially ethereum, go down too far. it makes bitcoin dominance back to 50%, more precisely the domination of bitcoin has reached 53%.

Well the market in general is following a downward trend and people may be thinking that btc would be the safest option for now. Considering how much the alts dropped compared to bitcoin.

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this is because the prices of altcoin, especially ethereum, go down too far. it makes bitcoin dominance back to 50%, more precisely the domination of bitcoin has reached 53%.

1Referee

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Quote from: d5000 on August 15, 2018, 12:15:54 AM

By the way, I think we could get a better measure for a coin's "popularity" or "value" than "market cap" if we try to measure its transaction activity. Probably Bitcoin's "dominance" would be much higher. Coinfairvalue tries something like that, but has some pretty strange valuations ...

That site lost my interest instantly the moment I saw BCash's "fair" value is $900 instead of the current $500.

It enjoys way less use, is a coin donated to people for free, is artificially being kept at a certain value to not have miners ditch them and make it easy for malicious entities to attack its network, etc. It's probably safe to say that they aren't really that keen on Bitcoin. Cheesy

It's way more useful to put coins aiming to operate within the same industry each in their own dominance list, which would significantly change things, but since this is a mere noob metric we probably don't need to take it that seriously.

d5000

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on August 15, 2018, 02:52:37 AM

Quote from: d5000 on August 14, 2018, 04:43:33 PM

Altcoins tend to grow in a disproportionate way in the last stages of a Bitcoin bull market.

Would that be because of the misplaced over-confidence by traders that the bull market will go on longer than they thought?

I also interpret it that way. Some traders may think it's only a "dip" in Bitcoin's otherwise bullish performance and try to "hedge", then they see that - caused by this effect - some altcoins temporarily perform much better than Bitcoin, and the domino effect comes in ...

Quote

In contrast, in the latter half of the bear market, altcoins tend to crash heavily and lose almost all of their value. Many of them never see their position in the "market cap rankings" again, because in the next cycle usually new altcoins become the "divas" of the moment.

Would that be because of "capitulation" from altcoins? Most of the altcoins cannot be traded to fiat, but only with Bitcoin.

Yes, capitulation and the "new coinz of the block" effect Wink

I believe the real reason are the poor offerings (and perspectives) of the overwhelming majority of altcoins. Most altcoins do not really solve a problem or offer a "killer feature", but are hyped driven by all sorts of promises, and their price is only driven by speculation, not by actual usage. These "hype-coins" disappear after a cycle after lots of traders lose their money, or they become buried by the next hypecoin wave. And I'm not even talking about ICO tokens which are (often) far worse ...

Quote

XRP, as much as I consider it a centralized coin with a concept that doesn't really make sense, seems to have established itself in the top altcoin positions, just like Ethereum - it's one of the few coins never having fallen out of the Coinmarketcap top 10, since 2013. I think this is related to its banking-oriented ecosystem of users.

What users? Hahaha.

A German bank, for example, used it for cheap remittances to the US. Ripple is one of the few altcoins that see actually some usage, although the big transaction amount is mostly related to irrelevant exchange activities.

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Quote from: theymos on August 14, 2018, 02:36:11 PM

I strongly suspect that dominance is inversely related to the BTC price, at least when looking at these large price movements in the short-term. So when BTC returns to $7k, I'd expect dominance to drop again. But it would be good/interesting if people are losing faith completely in the particularly worthless alts like XRP.

I don't think people will understand and it will keep getting worse with each new altcoin comes into the market.
The market will keep on dividing as the fools believe every 'X' coin/token will be the bitcoin of 2020. Undecided

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Quote from: d5000 on August 14, 2018, 04:43:33 PM

Quote from: theymos on August 14, 2018, 02:36:11 PM

I strongly suspect that dominance is inversely related to the BTC price, at least when looking at these large price movements in the short-term. So when BTC returns to $7k, I'd expect dominance to drop again. But it would be good/interesting if people are losing faith completely in the particularly worthless alts like XRP.

According to my observations , the dominance value is not directly related to price, but to the general market situation.

Altcoins tend to grow in a disproportionate way in the last stages of a Bitcoin bull market, and above all when Bitcoin already has hit its high and corrects sharply, and then some traders seem to search "refuge" in altcoins, driving up their price for a very short time (usually days, at most some weeks).

Would that be because of the misplaced over-confidence by traders that the bull market will go on longer than they thought?

I believe it is over-confidence and greed that traders move their Bitcoins to altcoins because take more risks and think that they can make profit more.

Quote

In contrast, in the latter half of the bear market, altcoins tend to crash heavily and lose almost all of their value. Many of them never see their position in the "market cap rankings" again, because in the next cycle usually new altcoins become the "divas" of the moment.

Would that be because of "capitulation" from altcoins? Most of the altcoins cannot be traded to fiat, but only with Bitcoin.

Quote

XRP, as much as I consider it a centralized coin with a concept that doesn't really make sense, seems to have established itself in the top altcoin positions, just like Ethereum - it's one of the few coins never having fallen out of the Coinmarketcap top 10, since 2013. I think this is related to its banking-oriented ecosystem of users. I don't know if that will change eventually and if better, more decentralized competitors could catch up.

What users? Hahaha.

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Quote from: 1Referee on August 14, 2018, 05:39:35 PM

People think the banking deals settled by Ripple the company are similar to banks positioning themselves in XRP the token, but that's not the case. XRP is nothing more than a product without any purpose other than allowing people to move value quickly through its centralized ecosystem. If people like using centralized garbage they can just as easily keep using PayPal, and the best thing of all is that PayPal has no insane premine. Tongue

Exactly that is why I think it's concept doesn't make much sense. If you have no problem with centralization, a client-server architecture is usually cheaper and more efficient than a blockchain.

Quote

Ripple the company, or more precisely said, Brad Garlinghouse and his buddies, own 60% of all the XRP tokens in existence already (they are currently locked up).

You're right, that may actually be the main reason for the "apparent stability" of the XRP rank.

However, as banks (and other users) using the Ripple infrastructure occasionally have to deposit funds in the Ripple ecosystem (and take certain exchange rate risks) when moving funds through it, and even have that may also be a major factor driving up - or at least, stabilizing - its price. Remember that most altcoins also have high premines (up to 100%) held, at best, by a group of whales, but they don't have the ecosystem Ripple can count with.

By the way, I think we could get a better measure for a coin's "popularity" or "value" than "market cap" if we try to measure its transaction activity. Probably Bitcoin's "dominance" would be much higher. Coinfairvalue tries something like that, but has some pretty strange valuations ...

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Quote from: d5000 on August 14, 2018, 04:43:33 PM

XRP, as much as I consider it a centralized coin with a concept that doesn't really make sense, seems to have established itself in the top altcoin positions, just like Ethereum - it's one of the few coins never having fallen out of the Coinmarketcap top 10, since 2013. I think this is related to its banking-oriented ecosystem of users. I don't know if that will change eventually and if better, more decentralized competitors could catch up.

People think the banking deals settled by Ripple the company are similar to banks positioning themselves in XRP the token, but that's not the case. XRP is nothing more than a product without any purpose other than allowing people to move value quickly through its centralized ecosystem. If people like using centralized garbage they can just as easily keep using PayPal, and the best thing of all is that PayPal has no insane premine. Tongue

Ripple the company, or more precisely said, Brad Garlinghouse and his buddies, own 60% of all the XRP tokens in existence already (they are currently locked up). On top of that they also own the majority of the circulating supply. It could very well be that they literally own like 75% of all the XRP tokens, which means 75 billion of the 100 billion tokens.

XRP on average pushes through trading volumes of around $250 million per day, which is peanuts. Litecoin, which is less than 50% of its size, pushes through the exact same daily trading volumes. Even Ethereum Classic with a $1.1 billion market cap generates more trading volume. XRP is just one big clown show.

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Quote from: pluMmet on August 14, 2018, 09:46:43 AM

Quote from: snipie on August 14, 2018, 02:30:57 AM

Most altcoins are created for a short period for a fast gain. Look at the coinmarketcap site, you will not recognise half of the coins there = fast turn-over. However, a little bit solid altcoins like ethereum and bcash dropped hugely so I think people are escaping to the safest alternative which is bitcoin.

many have already bought assets with very large capital when bitcoin has very low prices, and the more popular bitcoin is that many believe it and already believe in bitcoin, therefore bitcoin still dominates even though prices are very low.

Because they think that bitcoin was is the safe zone of investing rather than other altcoins, and they switch their altcoin to bitcoin.
The market makes worst in bitcoin price because of the dollar when the trader wants to exit and convert all of the funds he/she had then bitcoin is really affected. That's why bitcoin now is regaining dominance and it was obviously right because altcoin depends on bitcoin price.

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Quote from: theymos on August 14, 2018, 02:36:11 PM

I strongly suspect that dominance is inversely related to the BTC price, at least when looking at these large price movements in the short-term. So when BTC returns to $7k, I'd expect dominance to drop again. But it would be good/interesting if people are losing faith completely in the particularly worthless alts like XRP.

According to my observations , the dominance value is not directly related to price, but to the general market situation.

Altcoins tend to grow in a disproportionate way in the last stages of a Bitcoin bull market, and above all when Bitcoin already has hit its high and corrects sharply, and then some traders seem to search "refuge" in altcoins, driving up their price for a very short time (usually days, at most some weeks).

In contrast, in the latter half of the bear market, altcoins tend to crash heavily and lose almost all of their value. Many of them never see their position in the "market cap rankings" again, because in the next cycle usually new altcoins become the "divas" of the moment.

XRP, as much as I consider it a centralized coin with a concept that doesn't really make sense, seems to have established itself in the top altcoin positions, just like Ethereum - it's one of the few coins never having fallen out of the Coinmarketcap top 10, since 2013. I think this is related to its banking-oriented ecosystem of users. I don't know if that will change eventually and if better, more decentralized competitors could catch up.

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I strongly suspect that dominance is inversely related to the BTC price, at least when looking at these large price movements in the short-term. So when BTC returns to $7k, I'd expect dominance to drop again. But it would be good/interesting if people are losing faith completely in the particularly worthless alts like XRP.

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Quote from: snipie on August 14, 2018, 02:30:57 AM

Most altcoins are created for a short period for a fast gain. Look at the coinmarketcap site, you will not recognise half of the coins there = fast turn-over. However, a little bit solid altcoins like ethereum and bcash dropped hugely so I think people are escaping to the safest alternative which is bitcoin.

many have already bought assets with very large capital when bitcoin has very low prices, and the more popular bitcoin is that many believe it and already believe in bitcoin, therefore bitcoin still dominates even though prices are very low.

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This is happening with the speculations about Bitcoin ETF.

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