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Topic: Why is litecoin hyped so much when it doesn't add any value over bitcoin? - page 3. (Read 4555 times)

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/warning-bitcoin-will-soon-block-small-transaction-outputs-196138

Here is 1 good reason why Litecoin is needed.  Bitcoin already admits it is not a preferential coin for small transactions.  If Bitcoin ever did become the million dollar coin everyone would like it to become, your morning coffee purchase would not be able to transferred due to it being dust.  LOL at people who figure Bitcoins can be down to the satoshi level.  If/when the bitcoin network gets even busier, they will have to knock the dust down to an even larger factor.

Another reason Litecoin might be hyped is because it's not Bitcoin.  That can be a huge bonus right now while the US Gov't seems to have the Bitcoin network as it's main target.

If Bitcoin was worth a $1M then the dust threshold would be 1 satoshi (or roughly 1 US cent).  The dust threshold is a function of the min fee miners accept.  If miners are willing to accept transactions paying a 2 satoshi fee or less then the dust threshold would be 1 satoshi.

The min fee for low priority transactions is actually higher (in terms of purchasing power) on LTC network.

BTC min fee 0.00001 BTC = ~$0.01 USD
LTC min fee 0.1 LTC = ~$0.26 USD

Actually you're behind a bit.  LTC min fee dropped a week or so ago to 0.02 LTC still not as low as Bitcoin, but a notable difference from 0.1 LTC.

I think the fee has been lowered already
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 504
always the student, never the master.
Death and Taxes, i have throroughly enjoyed your posts thus far in this thread. could you speak on what it would take to say implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system? perhaps gost-cyphers 128 bit hashes could be used as public keys. what do you think?
Death and Taxes, i have throroughly enjoyed your posts thus far in this thread. could you speak on what it would take to say implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system? perhaps gost-cyphers 128 bit hashes could be used as public keys. what do you think?

As stdest pointed out you simply need to replace a few functions.  Now I don't think there is much value in doing that (as I have indicated about LTC) however if one were designing a novel new cryptocurrency it would not necessarily need to use the cryptographic primitives that Bitcoin uses:
proof of work: SHA-256
public keys: ECDSA
addresses (hash of public key): RIPEMD-160 & SHA-256

As for GOST there is no technical reason it could be used.  I am wary of using algorithms without extensive peer review.  In cryptography you are essentially trying to prove a negative.  Prove that this algorithm can't be broken.  Well you can prove it CAN be broken but you can never prove it can't be.  The closest thing we have is peer review and analsysis.  If a tens of thousands of experts all over the world, working for years can't break your algorithm the likelihood that it can be broken in the future is lower (but never zero).

Not sure if it was a typo but public keys are not hashes.  Public keys require public key cryptography like ECC OR RSA which uses mathematical properties which allows one to verify publicly but only create privately.  Bitcoin (and clone) addresses are the HASH of the public key.  There is no technical reason GOST couldn't be used there.

Private key =  random (or deterministic) x bit number
Public key = calculated from private key using a public key cryptographic system (RSA, ECC, etc)
Public Address = hash & checksum of the public key




i aprpreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. i actually am not that well versed in hashing functions or in the technical aspects of bitcoin. i'm just a curious person and i'm pondering the feasability of creating a cpu only coin using a different hash algo.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
- "Bitcore (BTX) - Airdrops every Monday"
Death and Taxes, i have throroughly enjoyed your posts thus far in this thread. could you speak on what it would take to say implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system? perhaps gost-cyphers 128 bit hashes could be used as public keys. what do you think?
Death and Taxes, i have throroughly enjoyed your posts thus far in this thread. could you speak on what it would take to say implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system? perhaps gost-cyphers 128 bit hashes could be used as public keys. what do you think?

As stdest pointed out you simply need to replace a few functions.  Now I don't think there is much value in doing that (as I have indicated about LTC) however if one were designing a novel new cryptocurrency it would not necessarily need to use the cryptographic primitives that Bitcoin uses:
proof of work: SHA-256
public keys: ECDSA
addresses (hash of public key): RIPEMD-160 & SHA-256

As for GOST there is no technical reason it could be used.  I am wary of using algorithms without extensive peer review.  In cryptography you are essentially trying to prove a negative.  Prove that this algorithm can't be broken.  Well you can prove it CAN be broken but you can never prove it can't be.  The closest thing we have is peer review and analsysis.  If a tens of thousands of experts all over the world, working for years can't break your algorithm the likelihood that it can be broken in the future is lower (but never zero).

Not sure if it was a typo but public keys are not hashes.  Public keys require public key cryptography like ECC OR RSA which uses mathematical properties which allows one to verify publicly but only create privately.  Bitcoin (and clone) addresses are the HASH of the public key.  There is no technical reason GOST couldn't be used there.

Private key =  random (or deterministic) x bit number for ECC (other algorithms may differ but generally the private key is a secret and random number, RSA for example uses a pair of random prime integers to create the private key)
Public key = calculated from private key using a public key cryptographic system (RSA, ECC, etc)
Public Address = hash & checksum of the public key



Generally you cannot derive the public key from the private key in RSA
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Actually you're behind a bit.  LTC min fee dropped a week or so ago to 0.02 LTC still not as low as Bitcoin, but a notable difference from 0.1 LTC.

Fixed.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Death and Taxes, i have throroughly enjoyed your posts thus far in this thread. could you speak on what it would take to say implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system? perhaps gost-cyphers 128 bit hashes could be used as public keys. what do you think?
Death and Taxes, i have throroughly enjoyed your posts thus far in this thread. could you speak on what it would take to say implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system? perhaps gost-cyphers 128 bit hashes could be used as public keys. what do you think?

As stdest pointed out you simply need to replace a few functions.  Now I don't think there is much value in doing that (as I have indicated about LTC) however if one were designing a novel new cryptocurrency it would not necessarily need to use the cryptographic primitives that Bitcoin uses:
proof of work: SHA-256
public keys: ECDSA
addresses (hash of public key): RIPEMD-160 & SHA-256

As for GOST there is no technical reason it could be used.  I am wary of using algorithms without extensive peer review.  In cryptography you are essentially trying to prove a negative.  Prove that this algorithm can't be broken.  Well you can prove it CAN be broken but you can never prove it can't be.  The closest thing we have is peer review and analsysis.  If a tens of thousands of experts all over the world, working for years can't break your algorithm the likelihood that it can be broken in the future is lower (but never zero).

Not sure if it was a typo but public keys are not hashes.  Public keys require public key cryptography like ECC OR RSA which uses mathematical properties which allows one to verify publicly but only create privately.  Bitcoin (and clone) addresses are the HASH of the public key.  There is no technical reason GOST couldn't be used there.

Private key =  random (or deterministic) x bit number for ECC (other algorithms may differ but generally the private key is a secret and random number, RSA for example uses a pair of random prime integers to create the private key)
Public key = calculated from private key using a public key cryptographic system (RSA, ECC, etc)
Public Address = hash & checksum of the public key


hero member
Activity: 541
Merit: 500
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/warning-bitcoin-will-soon-block-small-transaction-outputs-196138

Here is 1 good reason why Litecoin is needed.  Bitcoin already admits it is not a preferential coin for small transactions.  If Bitcoin ever did become the million dollar coin everyone would like it to become, your morning coffee purchase would not be able to transferred due to it being dust.  LOL at people who figure Bitcoins can be down to the satoshi level.  If/when the bitcoin network gets even busier, they will have to knock the dust down to an even larger factor.

Another reason Litecoin might be hyped is because it's not Bitcoin.  That can be a huge bonus right now while the US Gov't seems to have the Bitcoin network as it's main target.

If Bitcoin was worth a $1M then the dust threshold would be 1 satoshi (or roughly 1 US cent).  The dust threshold is a function of the min fee miners accept.  If miners are willing to accept transactions paying a 2 satoshi fee or less then the dust threshold would be 1 satoshi.

The min fee for low priority transactions is actually higher (in terms of purchasing power) on LTC network.

BTC min fee 0.00001 BTC = ~$0.01 USD
LTC min fee 0.1 LTC = ~$0.26 USD

Actually you're behind a bit.  LTC min fee dropped a week or so ago to 0.02 LTC still not as low as Bitcoin, but a notable difference from 0.1 LTC.
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system?
Changing hashing function is very simple. It is literally several lines of code.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
- "Bitcore (BTX) - Airdrops every Monday"
You made the claim and now are sticking with $10B NRE and $50,000 chips so don't ask me to prove a negative and certainly not for something that foolishly dumb.  Show that a LTC ASIC would cost $10B to design (more than the entire cost of Intel new foundry) and $50,000 per chip.  That is what the words "5 orders of magnitude" means.

Proving the negative means showing it (an equally efficient ASIC) currently cannot be done for less, exactly what you are asking me for when all you have to do is the opposite: provide just one single theoretical design that contradicts my statement.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
well...

consider this:

mining litecoin IS VERY EASY...

anyone who can build a rig can start mining RIGHT AWAY...

VERSUS

MINING WITH BITCOIN...

Well yeah it is true you can mine bitcoin with rigs... but with how much? you cannot compete with ASICS vs simple rigs...

plus you have to wait a decade to get your ASICs
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
You made the claim and now are sticking with $10B NRE and $50,000 chips so don't ask me to prove a negative and certainly not for something that foolishly dumb.  Show that a LTC ASIC would cost $10B to design (more than the entire cost of Intel new foundry) and $50,000 per chip.  That is what the words "5 orders of magnitude" means.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 504
always the student, never the master.
Death and Taxes, i have throroughly enjoyed your posts thus far in this thread. could you speak on what it would take to say implement whirlpool-t into a cryptocoin system? perhaps gost-cyphers 128 bit hashes could be used as public keys. what do you think?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
- "Bitcore (BTX) - Airdrops every Monday"
Up went the diff on BTC to the point GPU miners could not make a profit. Now since GPU miners make up about 80%+ of the miners what did you think they were gonna do, sit by while the old guard has steak to eat, while they get bread crumbs.  They are moving to the scrypt coin and nothing can be done about it.  BTC are only worth something because people say they are. Well the 80%+ is getting ready to say BTC is NOT worth anything anymore. Hence LTC is rising.

Lets assume all this is true (which it isn't).  LTC uses a weakened version of scrypt one which ASICs can be produced cost effectively so what happens when BTC "dies" and LTC become mainstream.  The global mining revenue shoots up into the hundreds of millions of dollars a year which justifies the development of LTC ASICs?



Despite the scrypt memory requirement relaxation in LTC we are still talking about 4 or 5 orders of magnitude of higher cost. Nobody came ever close to an efficient LTC ASIC even in theoretical designs, so the point is the development of LTC ASICs is by orders of magnitude less justified than the development of BTC ASICs and therefore won't happen before LTC gains in price as much.  

5 orders of magnitude really?
So BTC ASIC costs say $1M NRE and $5 per chip.
LTS $10B NRE and $500,000 per chip.

Really.  I mean that is just wrong that is common sense stupidly wrong.

An LTC ASIC can be produced today however the tiny amount of global mining revenue doesn't warrant it yet.  The efficiency gains are lower but the costs are not so high as to be a barrier.  Bitcoin ASICs didn't start looking cost effective until the exchange rate (and thus potential global mining revenue) was high enough.  



Yes, 4 to 5 orders of magnitude for a likewise efficient (this is the keyword here) LTC ASIC was the concensus among people who tried last time I checked, or do you know of any even theoretical designs that suggest otherwise.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
- "Bitcore (BTX) - Airdrops every Monday"
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/warning-bitcoin-will-soon-block-small-transaction-outputs-196138

Here is 1 good reason why Litecoin is needed.  Bitcoin already admits it is not a preferential coin for small transactions.  If Bitcoin ever did become the million dollar coin everyone would like it to become, your morning coffee purchase would not be able to transferred due to it being dust.  LOL at people who figure Bitcoins can be down to the satoshi level.  If/when the bitcoin network gets even busier, they will have to knock the dust down to an even larger factor.

Another reason Litecoin might be hyped is because it's not Bitcoin.  That can be a huge bonus right now while the US Gov't seems to have the Bitcoin network as it's main target.

If Bitcoin was worth a $1M then the dust threshold would be 1 satoshi (or roughly 1 US cent).  The dust threshold is a function of the min fee miners accept.  If miners are willing to accept transactions paying a 2 satoshi fee or less then the dust threshold would be 1 satoshi.

The min fee for low priority transactions is actually higher (in terms of purchasing power) on LTC network.

BTC min fee 0.00001 BTC = ~$0.01 USD
LTC min fee 0.02 LTC = ~$0.05 USD

So morning $1.99 coffee would have a 0.5% effective fee using BTC, 9.5% effective fee using LTC, and a 15% effective fee using a credit card. Wink
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
- "Bitcore (BTX) - Airdrops every Monday"
Up went the diff on BTC to the point GPU miners could not make a profit. Now since GPU miners make up about 80%+ of the miners what did you think they were gonna do, sit by while the old guard has steak to eat, while they get bread crumbs.  They are moving to the scrypt coin and nothing can be done about it.  BTC are only worth something because people say they are. Well the 80%+ is getting ready to say BTC is NOT worth anything anymore. Hence LTC is rising.

Lets assume all this is true (which it isn't).  LTC uses a weakened version of scrypt one which ASICs can be produced cost effectively so what happens when BTC "dies" and LTC become mainstream.  The global mining revenue shoots up into the hundreds of millions of dollars a year which justifies the development of LTC ASICs?



Despite the scrypt memory requirement relaxation in LTC we are still talking about 4 or 5 orders of magnitude of higher cost. Nobody came ever close to an efficient LTC ASIC even in theoretical designs, so the point is the development of LTC ASICs is by orders of magnitude less justified than the development of BTC ASICs and therefore won't happen before LTC gains in price as much.  
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
- "Bitcore (BTX) - Airdrops every Monday"
The biggest and really significant weakness of BTC is SHA-256, that is ASICs (which are a very genuine threat feasible for any dedicated attacker, getting a design and building a semiconductor fabrication plant can be had for a few $M). All renowned cryptographers agree that scrypt is far superior. Also the hashing algorithm can never be changed for BTC because that would require resolving the entire historical blockchain to achieve the same level of security LTC brings from the start. SHA-256 coins are rightly dead, and BTC is the only one still living off its initial and very major publicity until it will be replaced by a superior competitor (quite likely LTC or possibly PXC) just like Netscape Navigator, Yahoo Search, Friendster, Myspace, or any other generally innovative tech with execution flaws was. Doesn't take a genius to see that.

Also an imo ideal compromise between block time and network scalability (those altcoins with 60 seconds blocktimes and less couldn't ever scale to even what the BTC network is now).
I wonder if you would be saying the same thing if you had 50000 BTC tucked away.



But MOST of us don't have 50000 BTC tucked away.

See here is where most of the large holders screw up in there thinking.

When asic came out they were priced very high in BTC, and most people didn't have that many, so only a select few got them.

Up went the diff on BTC to the point GPU miners could not make a profit. Now since GPU miners make up about 80%+ of the miners what did you think they were gonna do, sit by while the old guard has steak to eat, while they get bread crumbs.  They are moving to the scrypt coin and nothing can be done about it.

BTC are only worth something because people say they are.

Well the 80%+ is getting ready to say BTC is NOT worth anything anymore. Hence LTC is rising.

The old guard has not relized the the BTC train is entering the last station. You must either change trains or stay at the station.

So, the GPU miners are starting to vote with thier feet.

Now that it is too late, the old guard, ie large BTC holders, seeing what is happening are starting to panic. They will try anything to keep their riches.

But when they are the only one left in BTC with their shiny asic what will they do?

I keep hearing how in the crypto coin world the great thing is how it takes 51% to change things. Well the 80% is starting to speak, and the old guard just hates it.

Ya reap what ya sow. They had it good, but got TOO greedy, and the rest are tiring of it. If they had let it spread out more this would not have happened imo.

So what ya gonna do old guard? Don't think there is much ya can. Have fun with your hoard of coins soon not to be worth much Shocked
Trouble is where do all the GPUs go when the LTC diff goes sky high and then unprofitable?

Stay with LTC because BTC only becomes unprofitable for GPU due to the fact that cost-efficient ASICs are feasible for BTC in the first place.. The point is that cost-efficient ASICs are unfeasible for LTC.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
- "Bitcore (BTX) - Airdrops every Monday"
hero member
Activity: 541
Merit: 500
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/warning-bitcoin-will-soon-block-small-transaction-outputs-196138

Here is 1 good reason why Litecoin is needed.  Bitcoin already admits it is not a preferential coin for small transactions.  If Bitcoin ever did become the million dollar coin everyone would like it to become, your morning coffee purchase would not be able to transferred due to it being dust.  LOL at people who figure Bitcoins can be down to the satoshi level.  If/when the bitcoin network gets even busier, they will have to knock the dust down to an even larger factor.

Another reason Litecoin might be hyped is because it's not Bitcoin.  That can be a huge bonus right now while the US Gov't seems to have the Bitcoin network as it's main target.
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