Why is the Occupy movement not immediately embracing bitcoin? - page 8.

BitterTea

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rarity on October 14, 2011, 08:55:43 PM

government
illegal
unregistered
illegal activity
traditional law enforcement

So, again we are talking about a total police state to enforce all of this? The "system" may alert illegal activity, but who will enforce it?

Or do you think the enforcement will be as successful as the current "war on drugs"?

It also seems like you are talking about a block-chain mined completely by the government. How are you going to make me switch to such a chain without force?

I think he's talking about Bitcoin. I also think he may be trolling.

Rarity, if you're not trolling... here's the problem you need to solve...

I receive a transaction to a "black market" address of 1ABC... Your block chain police scanner application sees an unauthorized transaction. How does it find ME?

Without having complete control over the entire network, you cannot enforce this.

Rarity

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Who will whitelist addresses? How will this be accomplished?

The government will assign them much like they do social security numbers.

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What happens when I accept bitcoins or mine for non-whitelisted addresses?

It will be illegal to accept payment from an unregistered address.

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What if I have multiple addresses that have never been linked in the block-chain? How will you link addresses to individuals? Give me some technical details?

There would be an initial grace period for you to consolidate your holdings, that is it. After that you may only use your assigned address in legal commerce or face penalty.

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What you are suggesting, in my opinion, requires a total police state. People will put up with bullshit regulations in the name of "safety" for a while, but when you have cameras in their toilets they will revolt.

Hardly, the system could practically be automated. It's as simple as checking if transactions are between whitelisted addresses and blacklisting any addresses found to be involved in illegal activity.

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Tell me how what you are suggestion is technologically feasible, and what will prevent an entire black market from exploding in your face?

It's not a technological problem, black markets will be taken on with traditional law enforcement as they currently are, with the added bonus that any attempts to launder into legitimate currency will be far easier to uncover thanks to the transaction log and whitelist.

FreeMoney

legendary

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Strength in numbers

Quote from: tvbcof on October 14, 2011, 04:36:49 PM

Quote from: phillipsjk on October 14, 2011, 04:14:30 PM

I think part of the point is that Bitcoins are scarce and that the elite would not be able to create money out of thin air to the detriment of the working class.

I see no reason why the 'elite' (or generally wealthy) could not obtain a lionshare of the Bitcoin just as they can a lionshare of the precious metals, property, bandwidth, or just about anything else. In fact, I suspect it would be easier with Bitcoin, at least during the high inflation period.

There is a pretty big difference between having a big pile of wealth and having a machine for systematically robbing all productive people indefinitely.

I think it changes the whole world to end that machine. It would take some people out of the parasite business and into doing more desired stuff and it would let the already productive people enjoy their own gains and possible be incentized to produce more.

Sure it would be nice to take back ill gotten gains. But goddamn that would be messy. And if you make one misstep you are essentially a thief.

BitterTea

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Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 07:11:28 PM

This is not at all how fractional reserve banking works, no one walks into the Reserve, prints themselves $1 billion, throws it in a backpack and goes home.

Nice straw man. Honoring your namesake? The Treasury tells the Fed to make them some more money. The Fed then magics money into existence and provides it to the Treasury. Then the treasury spends it on projects for which the corporations and special interests lobbied. At first, this money buys the same amounts of goods and services as all the other money in existence. Eventually, it trickles down to you, the employee, and it can now has less purchasing power, as the market has taken into account this new money.

Fractional reserve banking works in a similar way, except debtors take the place of the government. It transfers wealth from those who save to those who go into debt.

Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 07:11:28 PM

Government is not some dark, 'other' separate entity out to get you. It is made up of people just like you. The problem isn't that they have stacked society so far in their favor by themselves, it's that our greed set up society in a way that allows them to do it.

Bullshit. I've never held any political power, and only once while I was still naive did I vote to support the use of political power. Don't lump me (or the many like me) in with the rest of you statists. We're the ones trying to show you why the world is so fucked up. But no, it's those horrible rich people, always building new factories for profit and... oh... jobs.

JeffK

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I never hashed for this...

Quote from: BitterTea on October 14, 2011, 07:03:39 PM

Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 06:52:17 PM

Is Bitcoin any better at equal distribution? Once again, the people who "get in early" or start out with the means of production (video cards, FPGAs, etc) get access to the lion's share of the Bitcoins.

The problem with central banking isn't early adopters. The problem is that there is an entity which can create as much money out of thin air as it wants. This benefits those who receive the money first - banks, government, those politically connected, and then on down the line - at the expense of those who receive the money last - employees. Then there's the problem of the institutionalized fractional reserve system. This further dilutes money, benefiting the banks at the expense of savers.

It is true that a similar system could be built on top of bitcoin, but I find it highly unlikely that people would voluntarily exchange their hard-won decentralized currency for central bank notes again.

This is not at all how fractional reserve banking works, no one walks into the Reserve, prints themselves $1 billion, throws it in a backpack and goes home.

Government is not some dark, 'other' separate entity out to get you. It is made up of people just like you. The problem isn't that they have stacked society so far in their favor by themselves, it's that our greed set up society in a way that allows them to do it.

JeffK

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I never hashed for this...

Quote from: cbeast on October 14, 2011, 06:59:37 PM

Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 06:52:17 PM

Quote from: cbeast

They are just angry peasants sans pitchforks and torches. Few people even have an inkling of what is wrong with the present economic and banking system. Bitcoin is way over even most professional economists heads. There is still not a good case made about why bitcoin should fail, but even so, most people don't realize that it will very likely succeed. So they dismiss bitcoin until it proves itself. The OWS folks may have a few more intelligent people in the crowd than any other protest group, so that makes it worthwhile to try to reach them.

If Bitcoins are still "over most professional economists' heads", I doubt you can say it is 'very likely to succeed' in good faith. If professional economists can't see the merits of it, how on earth do you expect the average person to fare any better?

The genie is out of the bottle, so to speak. Bitcoin will survive and eventually thrive on its own merit. It is a newly discovered technology similar to the discovery of fractals. It took many years before the true power of fractals were discovered and the same will become of bitcoin technology and cryptography in general.

Fractals are not a technology, they are a part of mathematics.

Bitcoin is an invention, and one with a bit of an idealogical slant at that(non-inflationary currency)

They are wildly different things. Fractals are not something that is 'thriving' or was invented, they just exist. Cryptography, too, has a proven track record backed by mathematics. Bitcoin only has fanatics backing it who believe that their particular solution to currency and economics is correct, which is purely opinion.

BitterTea

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Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 06:52:17 PM

Is Bitcoin any better at equal distribution? Once again, the people who "get in early" or start out with the means of production (video cards, FPGAs, etc) get access to the lion's share of the Bitcoins.

The problem with central banking isn't early adopters. The problem is that there is an entity which can create as much money out of thin air as it wants. This benefits those who receive the money first - banks, government, those politically connected, and then on down the line - at the expense of those who receive the money last - employees. Then there's the problem of the institutionalized fractional reserve system. This further dilutes money, benefiting the banks at the expense of savers.

It is true that a similar system could be built on top of bitcoin, but I find it highly unlikely that people would voluntarily exchange their hard-won decentralized currency for central bank notes again.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 06:52:17 PM

Quote from: cbeast

They are just angry peasants sans pitchforks and torches. Few people even have an inkling of what is wrong with the present economic and banking system. Bitcoin is way over even most professional economists heads. There is still not a good case made about why bitcoin should fail, but even so, most people don't realize that it will very likely succeed. So they dismiss bitcoin until it proves itself. The OWS folks may have a few more intelligent people in the crowd than any other protest group, so that makes it worthwhile to try to reach them.

If Bitcoins are still "over most professional economists' heads", I doubt you can say it is 'very likely to succeed' in good faith. If professional economists can't see the merits of it, how on earth do you expect the average person to fare any better?

The genie is out of the bottle, so to speak. Bitcoin will survive and eventually thrive on its own merit. It is a newly discovered technology similar to the discovery of fractals. It took many years before the true power of fractals were discovered and the same will become of bitcoin technology and cryptography in general.

Mageant

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I'm going Occupy Amsterdam tomorrow (October 15th) with the following sign:
"Nobody should control the money! - Bitcoin"

Grin

JeffK

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I never hashed for this...

Quote from: BitterTea on October 14, 2011, 06:34:42 PM

Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 06:27:11 PM

Maybe people at OWS are completely fine with the nature of our monetary system, and are rather upset at the politics and influence that led to it being so unfairly and unequally distributed.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and it's because the neurotypicals can't understand tech concepts like Bitcoin.

I don't think it's so much that they can't understand Bitcoin (really, the concepts are not that difficult), but that they do not understand the nature of the monetary system. That system revolves around the concept of centralized control over the supply of money. What most people don't consider is the possibility that the system itself was created for the purpose of unequal distribution.

Is Bitcoin any better at equal distribution? Once again, the people who "get in early" or start out with the means of production (video cards, FPGAs, etc) get access to the lion's share of the Bitcoins.

Quote from: cbeast

They are just angry peasants sans pitchforks and torches. Few people even have an inkling of what is wrong with the present economic and banking system. Bitcoin is way over even most professional economists heads. There is still not a good case made about why bitcoin should fail, but even so, most people don't realize that it will very likely succeed. So they dismiss bitcoin until it proves itself. The OWS folks may have a few more intelligent people in the crowd than any other protest group, so that makes it worthwhile to try to reach them.

If Bitcoins are still "over most professional economists' heads", I doubt you can say it is 'very likely to succeed' in good faith. If professional economists can't see the merits of it, how on earth do you expect the average person to fare any better?

Rarity

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Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!

Quote from: BitterTea on October 14, 2011, 05:46:08 PM

Quote from: Rarity on October 14, 2011, 05:40:51 PM

Bitcoin will be the only currency considered valid, they won't have to choose to buy in or not.

This will happen when you are appointed dictator of the world? lol

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If it doesn't come from a whitelisted source it will be considered illegal and be confiscated.

Good luck funding your police state without control over the money supply!

This will be achieved via the Democratic process demanding Bitcoin be made the currency due to the many advantages it offers to the people. There is no need for a Dictator. Bitcoin will be confiscated the same way any money is confiscated, via threat of legal action.

There is no need for six sense. If someone is caught dealing illegal drugs, for example, he would have to be using a whitelisted adress since legitimate businesses will not be accepting non-Bitcoin currency, it would be worthless to take money nobody would be able to accept.. After the arrest, we can see the entire transaction history of the adress to also capture the people who were buying the drugs and who supplied the dealer.

We can do the same thing to track people who try to purchase illegal weapons or engage in illegal gambling or are otherwise engaged in transactions with criminal elements.

mb300sd

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Drunk Posts

I talked to the Occupy crowd here at my college a couple nights back, they seemed fairly interested...or maybe they were just humoring the drunk guy. I got a few of them to download the android wallet though.

BitterTea

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Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 06:27:11 PM

Maybe people at OWS are completely fine with the nature of our monetary system, and are rather upset at the politics and influence that led to it being so unfairly and unequally distributed.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and it's because the neurotypicals can't understand tech concepts like Bitcoin.

I don't think it's so much that they can't understand Bitcoin (really, the concepts are not that difficult), but that they do not understand the nature of the monetary system. That system revolves around the concept of centralized control over the supply of money. What most people don't consider is the possibility that the system itself was created for the purpose of unequal distribution.

For example... why did the progenitors of the Federal Reserve act, who were representatives from wealthy banking families, meet in secret for 11 days (along with Senator Aldritch) in order to create the bill, if it was in fact for the good of the public?

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: JeffK on October 14, 2011, 06:27:11 PM

Maybe people at OWS are completely fine with the nature of our monetary system, and are rather upset at the politics and influence that led to it being so unfairly and unequally distributed.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and it's because the neurotypicals can't understand tech concepts like Bitcoin.

They are just angry peasants sans pitchforks and torches. Few people even have an inkling of what is wrong with the present economic and banking system. Bitcoin is way over even most professional economists heads. There is still not a good case made about why bitcoin should fail, but even so, most people don't realize that it will very likely succeed. So they dismiss bitcoin until it proves itself. The OWS folks may have a few more intelligent people in the crowd than any other protest group, so that makes it worthwhile to try to reach them.

JeffK

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

I never hashed for this...

Maybe people at OWS are completely fine with the nature of our monetary system, and are rather upset at the politics and influence that led to it being so unfairly and unequally distributed.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and it's because the neurotypicals can't understand tech concepts like Bitcoin.

tvbcof

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Quote from: BitterTea on October 14, 2011, 05:05:10 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on October 14, 2011, 04:36:49 PM

Quote from: phillipsjk on October 14, 2011, 04:14:30 PM

I think part of the point is that Bitcoins are scarce and that the elite would not be able to create money out of thin air to the detriment of the working class.

I see no reason why the 'elite' (or generally wealthy) could not obtain a lionshare of the Bitcoin just as they can a lionshare of the precious metals, property, bandwidth, or just about anything else. In fact, I suspect it would be easier with Bitcoin, at least during the high inflation period.

There's nothing stopping them from buying bitcoin, and I'm sure some will. However, I think it's far too risky for them to acquire a significant amount of them. You have to remember, the ones to worry about are entrenched in the current system. Buying into Bitcoin means buying into an alternative to the current system.

I would expect that if/when the Bitcoin project looks like it has much potential for traction, some wealthy person will snap up a pretty fair chunk of the total currency base for what amount to chump change. And some of his buddies, most of the rest.

As I've mentioned before, I think that worrying to much about who actually 'has' bitcoin is not seeing the forest for the trees. A much more critical line of thought revolves around what the owners of the currency 'do' with it, and why.

BitterTea

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rarity on October 14, 2011, 05:40:51 PM

confiscated.

Describe the process in detail for me so I know what you are talking about.

He uses his sixth sense to track down the recipient (and the sender) of the ILLEGAL transaction. Then, he asks oh so nicely for the encryption key to your wallet. When you refuse to give it to him, he holds a gun to your youngest child's head and blows their brains out if you don't, killing your family in order of age until you comply. If you still refuse, you die.

SIMPLE!

BitterTea

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Quote from: Rarity on October 14, 2011, 05:40:51 PM

Bitcoin will be the only currency considered valid, they won't have to choose to buy in or not.

This will happen when you are appointed dictator of the world? lol

Quote

If it doesn't come from a whitelisted source it will be considered illegal and be confiscated.

Good luck funding your police state without control over the money supply!

Rarity

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Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!

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Also, I feel that you really don't understand Bitcoin. The "log" is pseudonymous, how do you propose to determine which addresses belong to which individuals in the first place?

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There's nothing stopping them from buying bitcoin, and I'm sure some will. However, I think it's far too risky for them to acquire a significant amount of them. You have to remember, the ones to worry about are entrenched in the current system. Buying into Bitcoin means buying into an alternative to the current system.

Bitcoin will be the only currency considered valid, they won't have to choose to buy in or not.

Quote

I think people generally don't like being told they need to prove the provenance of cash transactions over $10,000.

Most people will keep two sets of books. If they need to launder small ammounts of cash, they can simply send it to one of their "whitelisted" addresses. Large transactions would obvioulsy get the attention of authorities.

If it doesn't come from a whitelisted source it will be considered illegal and be confiscated.

phillipsjk

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Let the chips fall where they may.

Quote from: Rarity on October 14, 2011, 04:22:32 PM

You don't blacklist, you whitelist.

I think people generally don't like being told they need to prove the provenance of cash transactions over $10,000.

Most people will keep two sets of books. If they need to launder small ammounts of cash, they can simply send it to one of their "whitelisted" addresses. Large transactions would obvioulsy get the attention of authorities.

Topic: Why is the Occupy movement not immediately embracing bitcoin? - page 8. (Read 17960 times)