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Topic: Why isn't the Lightning Network being implemented in the Bitcoin protocol? (Read 1164 times)

newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
In my opinion, I think the intended purpose of Bitcoin wasn't to make profit, but to create a utopian society where monetary systems have no value.

It doesn't really matter what the intended purpose was. It becomes what the subsequent users decide it is. Unfortunately those users are human and so avarice will shit all over anything more noble.


If I could just ask why would it not matter what the intended purpose was?

I'm sure the creator of the Bitcoin protocol had an intended purpose for it, like an end goal.

If extreme greed is the concern, don't we have the technology and the infrastructure in our society to produce everything at abundance for free?

The monetary system is what discriminates who gets to access which good or service is sought.

Anyways, that's just my opinion, what do you think it's intended purpose was if you don't mind me asking?

legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3014
Welt Am Draht
In my opinion, I think the intended purpose of Bitcoin wasn't to make profit, but to create a utopian society where monetary systems have no value.

It doesn't really matter what the intended purpose was. It becomes what the subsequent users decide it is. Unfortunately those users are human and so avarice will shit all over anything more noble.
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
It seems as though the incentives are not aligned within the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Miners seek profit whilst some individual nodes seek integrity and some developers seek change. But change to what?

The other question is how do you balance all these incentives to create a sustainable network for the future?

I think that all of us here that want to see Bitcoin thrive as a means of transfering value and I think that's what Satoshi wants as well.

So how do improve transferring value online to make it more efficient, less costly and trustworthy for all the players?

In my opinion, I think the intended purpose of Bitcoin wasn't to make profit, but to create a utopian society where monetary systems have no value.

Money is just used to access goods and services and I think Bitcoin's aim is to destroy any form of access and provide goods and services for free once the cap is reached.

Sorry if I'm not being too technical but I'm fairly new in the crypto space and I just thought I would share my opinion.

What do you guys think was Satoshi's purpose in creating the Bitcoin protocol amidst the financial crisis of 2009?

I would love to know your thoughts.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink

Not all miners support LN. Hence the stalemate. If miners loses fees in the future then who is going to secure the network? For free? or little fees?
We can have low fees and scalability using Full Nodes. I can not see any problems.
Thus two sets of fee per transaction. Minimum 1000 sat (roughly 1 cent) to Full Nodes and normal fee to miners. Both need to be fixed and not all this stupid replace-by-fee, trying to calculate how much to pay, queue jumping, idiotic "free market" by developers expecting users to compete, etc.

1. pools are not pushing the fee's up. blockstreams fee mechanisms coding is and the issue of block size is. so dont make it a drama about pools

Never mentioned pools...

i count three mentions.. we are no longer in 2009-2011 of solo mining

Ho ho. There's no drama. Merely raising questions, what if scenarios, about possible futures.
legendary
Activity: 4396
Merit: 4755
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink

Not all miners support LN. Hence the stalemate. If miners loses fees in the future then who is going to secure the network? For free? or little fees?
We can have low fees and scalability using Full Nodes. I can not see any problems.
Thus two sets of fee per transaction. Minimum 1000 sat (roughly 1 cent) to Full Nodes and normal fee to miners. Both need to be fixed and not all this stupid replace-by-fee, trying to calculate how much to pay, queue jumping, idiotic "free market" by developers expecting users to compete, etc.

1. pools are not pushing the fee's up. blockstreams fee mechanisms coding is and the issue of block size is. so dont make it a drama about pools

Never mentioned pools...

i count three mentions.. we are no longer in 2009-2011 of solo mining
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink

Not all miners support LN. Hence the stalemate. If miners loses fees in the future then who is going to secure the network? For free? or little fees?
We can have low fees and scalability using Full Nodes. I can not see any problems.
Thus two sets of fee per transaction. Minimum 1000 sat (roughly 1 cent) to Full Nodes and normal fee to miners. Both need to be fixed and not all this stupid replace-by-fee, trying to calculate how much to pay, queue jumping, idiotic "free market" by developers expecting users to compete, etc.

1. pools are not pushing the fee's up. blockstreams fee mechanisms coding is and the issue of block size is. so dont make it a drama about pools
2. at the moment think of it as the same as xapo, changetip, coinbase where people trade offchain daily anyway. LN is no different.
yep for emphasis
LN does no more harm to pools future bonus/income as what xapo is and has been doing for years. so relax

now with that said as long as LN stays as a voluntary side service for the niche users like faucet raiders and day traders. and we also get onchain scaling too then there can be a symbiotic relationship of under 10cent tx's onchain that grow in user capacity naturally over years so that fees remain low per users, but add up and combine to cover long term pool costs.. and off chain sub penny voluntary side services for the high yield multispenders to take the pressure off of onchain utility. thus everyone gets the best of both.

the only concern this year is to get onchain scaling made dynamically so that we can organically/naturally grow onchain scaling to user defined limits that nodes can cope with to reduce the pressure of onchain fee's ruining bitcoin utility/desire. WITHOUT needing to endlessly/repeatedly appeal to dev-kings to spoonfeed setting and debate for years.

segwit does not fix these things. segwits features are only temporary gestures that skirt around the utopian promises. and after a few years people will look back and laugh at all the 2 merkle segwit drama of wasted time, once people wake up to reality.

REAL onchain scaling is whats really needed now and then LN is. and the whole drama of what pools need in 20-120 years will look after itself as the years pass.

pools are not voting against LN. they are voting against/abstaining from voting for/against segwits 2 merkle tier netwok of control and cesspit. for multiple reasons.

Never mentioned pools...
legendary
Activity: 4396
Merit: 4755
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink

Not all miners support LN. Hence the stalemate. If miners loses fees in the future then who is going to secure the network? For free? or little fees?
We can have low fees and scalability using Full Nodes. I can not see any problems.
Thus two sets of fee per transaction. Minimum 1000 sat (roughly 1 cent) to Full Nodes and normal fee to miners. Both need to be fixed and not all this stupid replace-by-fee, trying to calculate how much to pay, queue jumping, idiotic "free market" by developers expecting users to compete, etc.

1. pools are not pushing the fee's up. blockstreams fee mechanisms coding is and the issue of block size is. so dont make it a drama about pools
2. at the moment think of it as the same as xapo, changetip, coinbase where people trade offchain daily anyway. LN is no different.
yep for emphasis
LN does no more harm to pools future bonus/income as what xapo is and has been doing for years. so relax

now with that said as long as LN stays as a voluntary side service for the niche users like faucet raiders and day traders. and we also get onchain scaling too then there can be a symbiotic relationship of under 10cent tx's onchain that grow in user capacity naturally over years so that fees remain low per users, but add up and combine to cover long term pool costs.. and off chain sub penny voluntary side services for the high yield multispenders to take the pressure off of onchain utility. thus everyone gets the best of both.

the only concern this year is to get onchain scaling made dynamically so that we can organically/naturally grow onchain scaling to user defined limits that nodes can cope with to reduce the pressure of onchain fee's ruining bitcoin utility/desire. WITHOUT needing to endlessly/repeatedly appeal to dev-kings to spoonfeed setting and debate for years.

segwit does not fix these things. segwits features are only temporary gestures that skirt around the utopian promises. and after a few years people will look back and laugh at all the 2 merkle segwit drama of wasted time, once people wake up to reality.

REAL onchain scaling is whats really needed now and then LN is. and the whole drama of what pools need in 20-120 years will look after itself as the years pass.

pools are not voting against LN. they are voting against/abstaining from voting for/against segwits 2 merkle tier netwok of control and cesspit. for multiple reasons.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink

Not all miners support LN. Hence the stalemate. If miners loses fees in the future then who is going to secure the network? For free? or little fees?
We can have low fees and scalability using Full Nodes. I can not see any problems.
Thus two sets of fee per transaction. Minimum 1000 sat (roughly 1 cent) to Full Nodes and normal fee to miners. Both need to be fixed and not all this stupid replace-by-fee, trying to calculate how much to pay, queue jumping, idiotic "free market" by developers expecting users to compete, etc.
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3014
Welt Am Draht
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink

LN transactions seem to be limited to 0.042 BTC for now. All of my recent transactions have been bigger than that because that's how I roll.

And to start doing LN transactions you have to kick off with an on chain TX plus another to get off. The possible demand for on chain stuff might be bonkers. I really can't see any scenario where miners lose out, especially if block sizes remain modest.

But I'd want to see a properly working iteration before deciding it was a certifiable wonder. It might be a load of noodly bollocks beyond the testnets. I especially dunno how the hub thing will play out.
legendary
Activity: 4396
Merit: 4755
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink

pools DO NOT CARE about LN

the tx fee's are not needed income. its just a bonus and will remain a bonus for decades. so pools dont care right now and no reason to push for $1 onchain tx last or this or next year..

its blockstream that have done all the code changes that result in highr fee's not the pools.
blockstream devs (most fee based code changes done by gmax himself) all because he wants rusty russels LN to be the money earner hub to repay blockstream debts

pools would prefer
2200 tx last year with $0.10 per tx = $220 bonus
4400 tx this year with $0.10 per tx = $440 bonus
xxx00 tx in near future year with $0.10 per tx = $1x00 bonus
xxx00 tx in near further year with $0.10 per tx = $2x00 bonus
xxx00 tx in near later year with $0.10 per tx = $4x00 bonus

that way utility remains and eventually in 20-120 years when the income:bonus(reward:fee) flip to income:bonus(fee:reward) bitcoin remains popular, usable and not expensive for users.

yes LN as a side service will be ok for those spending more than once a day..
.. but onchain for people that may only transact once a week or month without having to pay $1 each time
legendary
Activity: 4396
Merit: 4755
Great point.

LN hubs and nodes are on their respective layers of the network.   

The fact that we seem to need these 'hubs' should tell people that LN may not be as great as they think it is, because they are a from of centralization and move us farther away from p2p cash.

in short LN = PERMISSIONED tx's.. (it needs other parties signature of agreement)
in short LN = reinventing chargeback risks(CSV) and 3-5 business day funds unavailable(CLTV)
in short LN = only good for small spending $60ish with 2week lockin-ish

thus dont think of it as the end solution to scaling. think of it like a side service like Xapo
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
The only reason behind this is huge debate between bitcoin users and miners.
With LN miners will loss so much of their revenue from fees.
With LN normal bitcoin users can have faster transactions with very low fee.

why all this miners will support LN if they gonna loss their revenue  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
I'm fairly new to this discussion board so please pardon me if my question seems to be quite trivial.

I was wondering why the lightning network hasn't been launched yet?

I understand the SegWit needs to be activated first and miners are essentially centralizing their power for their own interests but for the whole Bitcoin ecosystem, the LN speeds up confirmation times, enables the transfer of really small values and streamlines the process of transferring BTC within the Bitcoin network.

Although there are drawbacks to this extension, I think that the pros outweigh the cons and it should be launched as soon as possible. The politics behind this debate does not contribute anything to the ecosystem and something needs to be done in order for Bitcoin to be a sustainable method of payment in the future.

So can anyone help me understand what's stopping this from happening? In my opinion, I think this is the future of the Bitcoin network and it would be a shame if consensus cannot be reached regarding this topic.

Please discuss.



Too many people are thinking "Lightning Network" is great. How many truly understand it?
Firstly, Bitcoin depends on miners to secure the blockchain, etc. Miners POW rewards will go down over the next 20 years and by then fees will replace the reduced mining rewards. If fees are going to LN "hubs" pockets then who is going to secure Bitcoin itself?
Which begs a question. Why "hubs" and not Full Nodes - users also securing the BTC network but not mining?

Great point.

LN hubs and nodes are on their respective layers of the network.   

The fact that we seem to need these 'hubs' should tell people that LN may not be as great as they think it is, because they are a from of centralization and move us farther away from p2p cash.

legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
I'm fairly new to this discussion board so please pardon me if my question seems to be quite trivial.

I was wondering why the lightning network hasn't been launched yet?

I understand the SegWit needs to be activated first and miners are essentially centralizing their power for their own interests but for the whole Bitcoin ecosystem, the LN speeds up confirmation times, enables the transfer of really small values and streamlines the process of transferring BTC within the Bitcoin network.

Although there are drawbacks to this extension, I think that the pros outweigh the cons and it should be launched as soon as possible. The politics behind this debate does not contribute anything to the ecosystem and something needs to be done in order for Bitcoin to be a sustainable method of payment in the future.

So can anyone help me understand what's stopping this from happening? In my opinion, I think this is the future of the Bitcoin network and it would be a shame if consensus cannot be reached regarding this topic.

Please discuss.



Too many people are thinking "Lightning Network" is great. How many truly understand it?
Firstly, Bitcoin depends on miners to secure the blockchain, etc. Miners POW rewards will go down over the next 20 years and by then fees will replace the reduced mining rewards. If fees are going to LN "hubs" pockets then who is going to secure Bitcoin itself?
Which begs a question. Why "hubs" and not Full Nodes - users also securing the BTC network but not mining?
legendary
Activity: 4396
Merit: 4755
What people are missing though is that the Lightning Network is in very early stages.  As well as being a problem for miners who rely on onchain transactions, the Lightning Network could well have major bugs or problems that still need working out.  It's going to be a long time before the Lightning Network will actually be ready and be implemented.

multisigs have been around years and doing 'bidirectional offchain payments' have been done for just as long..

but to translate Nagadota
blockstreams version of 'bidirectional offchain payments' (LN) is not ready and buggy and wont be ready because it relies on half baked segwit, and keypairs that are not even ready yet

we should not force half baked segwit in just for hopes of the half baked features. and then hope that forcing it in speeds up LN. and definetly not continue pushing it all the way to 2019 if there is still doubt in november 2017..

instead we need to push to get the puppet masters blockstream to do a plan B of a proper community uniting release that does more then halfbaked segwit. (1merkle segwitkeys, plus LN keys, plus dynamic blocks, plus low under 4k maxtxsigops, etc).. and have that as the active by 2019 backup plan.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
ClaimWithMe - the most paying faucet of all times!
To give you a simple answer...

1. Miners make too much money from high fees during spam attacks to accept a solution to the scaling problem.
2. Developers from both sides { SegWit vs BU } wants control over Bitcoin.
3. The LN will be more complex and would be a lot more effort for miners to maintain. { Running a few Asic's takes little effort }

So it's all about MONEY & POWER and who has the biggest balls.   Angry Huh Angry
What people are missing though is that the Lightning Network is in very early stages.  As well as being a problem for miners who rely on onchain transactions, the Lightning Network could well have major bugs or problems that still need working out.  It's going to be a long time before the Lightning Network will actually be ready and be implemented.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1074
To give you a simple answer...

1. Miners make too much money from high fees during spam attacks to accept a solution to the scaling problem.
2. Developers from both sides { SegWit vs BU } wants control over Bitcoin.
3. The LN will be more complex and would be a lot more effort for miners to maintain. { Running a few Asic's takes little effort }

So it's all about MONEY & POWER and who has the biggest balls.   Angry Huh Angry
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Quote
Second-tier networks such as Lightning Network (which relies on SegWit) cannot be considered as a block scaling solution. LN transactions are NOT equal to Bitcoin’s peer-to-peer on-chain transactions and most Bitcoin use scenarios are not applicable with Lightning Network. LN will also lead to big payment “centers”, and this is against Bitcoin’s initial design as a peer-to-peer payment system. It can be a good method though for frequent and small Bitcoin transactions in certain cases. But we cannot rely on it as a cure for Bitcoin scaling.

source: https://medium.com/@ViaBTC/why-we-dont-support-segwit-91d44475cc18

"ViaBTC" aren't competent enough to have a solid opinion on the lightning network. They are just miners, they don't have the brains and experience on the field.

Let's look at a reputable expert opinion with decades of experience on this very particular field:

http://bitcoinist.com/nick-szabo-bitcoin-censorship-resistance/

Now, do you trust ViaBTC and franky1, or Nick Szabo? Choose wisely.

PS: No, normal people outsource this stuff to expert and don't pretend to "read code" and figure it out themselves. All experts agree on segwit being the best solution, there's no conspiracy theory, don't be a child.

I have a background in computer science and I'm able to understand the issues.

Nick Szabo is smart obviously and has a long history of digital currency involved but I find he is becoming politicized in this debate.  For example

Quote
Bitcoin blockchain itself cannot possibly come anywhere near Visa transaction-per-second numbers and maintain the automated integrity that creates its distinctive advantages versus these traditional financial systems.

These 'distinctive advantages' are subjective.  You have to ask questions like:

 - How big of a node cost is too big?
 - Is Szabo really addressing the topology of the LN and real life use cases for p2p cash? (If so where, I haven't seen it)
 - Why isn't Szabo addressing the elephants in the room like 1mb is ridiculously small and can be raised and raising is required for LN anyway?

But to address a bigger issue, its a bad thing to start believing that Bitcoin is so hard to understand than only
a few select individuals should be making decisions.  That kind of centralization decision making is antithetical
to Bitcoin.

We all have different levels of understanding and all of us are relying on others to some degree.

- Some know nothing about how Bitcoin works but see enough evidence in the world to trust it.
- Some understand only the basic idea of a distributed ledger secured by incentived nodes
- Some understand many of the Bitcoin components like assymetric cryptography, hash functions, merkle trees, etc
- Some understand the broader concepts like distributed consensus, hard forks, soft forks, orphans, etc
- Some understand related details like coinbase transactions, issuance, etc
- Some understand mining, pools, network hashrate, difficulty adjustments, etc
- Some understand finer details like sigops, UTXO pruning, etc
- Some understand opensource software development, code library management, pull requests, etc
- Some have a deep understanding of the codebase itself through working on it
- Some have expertise in cryptography
etc

We all rely on others, but nothing is beyond understanding, and the more you know, the more
you understand who can make intelligent points about a certain level of Bitcoin.  You do not
have to be a core developer to question the blocksize.

To say that a major mining pool doesn't know enough about Segwit to make the arguments
it does, tells me that you probably don't know enough about the various layers of knowledge
that are at play here.  



 
legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1183
Quote
Second-tier networks such as Lightning Network (which relies on SegWit) cannot be considered as a block scaling solution. LN transactions are NOT equal to Bitcoin’s peer-to-peer on-chain transactions and most Bitcoin use scenarios are not applicable with Lightning Network. LN will also lead to big payment “centers”, and this is against Bitcoin’s initial design as a peer-to-peer payment system. It can be a good method though for frequent and small Bitcoin transactions in certain cases. But we cannot rely on it as a cure for Bitcoin scaling.

source: https://medium.com/@ViaBTC/why-we-dont-support-segwit-91d44475cc18

"ViaBTC" aren't competent enough to have a solid opinion on the lightning network. They are just miners, they don't have the brains and experience on the field.

Let's look at a reputable expert opinion with decades of experience on this very particular field:

http://bitcoinist.com/nick-szabo-bitcoin-censorship-resistance/

Now, do you trust ViaBTC and franky1, or Nick Szabo? Choose wisely.

PS: No, normal people outsource this stuff to expert and don't pretend to "read code" and figure it out themselves. All experts agree on segwit being the best solution, there's no conspiracy theory, don't be a child.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Quote
Second-tier networks such as Lightning Network (which relies on SegWit) cannot be considered as a block scaling solution. LN transactions are NOT equal to Bitcoin’s peer-to-peer on-chain transactions and most Bitcoin use scenarios are not applicable with Lightning Network. LN will also lead to big payment “centers”, and this is against Bitcoin’s initial design as a peer-to-peer payment system. It can be a good method though for frequent and small Bitcoin transactions in certain cases. But we cannot rely on it as a cure for Bitcoin scaling.

source: https://medium.com/@ViaBTC/why-we-dont-support-segwit-91d44475cc18
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