Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? - page 2.

skorupi17

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IMHO ....why fix the transaction fee and block size etc....well ....it artificially keeps the price of btc low...with consensus we'd be looking at 4k btc imho
so the more FUD you have the more you can keep the price down...if you are a whale or big player..thus more coin accumulation

only way consensus will be reached imho is if btc dumps back to say 1,000 usd and the other crypto's surge....until that happens ..no incentive

by those stirring all this up to not continue to do the same FUD

I'm likely wrong...feel free to point my errors out on this...but comparing it to other markets where big players can keep price low and accumulate..it sure smells the same imho Sad

[/quote]

I am pointing to the fixing the transaction fee only and not about the block size. I never mentioned about the block size, I was pertaining to the transaction size (if ever your eyes get blurry or something that mistaken transaction size as block size).

I cannot quite get the involvement of transaction fee to the price of bitcoin. The fact is that the demand and supply of bitcoin in the market dictates the price of bitcoin. The higher the demand, with respect to the supply, the higher the price. Can you clarify the involvement of price of btc here.

Qunenin

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Quote from: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 12:26:42 PM

I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.

Not really, i think bitcoin will remain an everyone currency. We need to fix and sort out the Tx Fee issue and more importantly the slow transaction fee which is not good for faster purchasing market. I think Miners needs to think a way so no one feels burden on the Tx issue.
Currently you can see lots of people complaining about the amount of fee they send for a transaction and time it takes for the confirmations.

concept2

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It will take a lot of time to develop a algorithm which is the same as what you are expecting. Moreover, even the fees are fixed, I do not think that it can solve the confirmation time because there are more than 20000 transactions which are not confirmed on the blockchain

Nagadota

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Quote from: TryNinja on May 21, 2017, 12:42:57 PM

Quote from: Nagadota on May 21, 2017, 12:35:47 PM

Both of those options are impossible.

Transaction fees don't exist solely to pay miners for their work - if there were no transaction fees at all, they would still receive far more than enough as a block reward to keep the network secure.

Originally, transaction fees were just a tiny extra donation to help get your transaction confirmed sooner than other people and not everyone would pay transaction fees.

That's no longer the reason for transaction fees. The reason for the amount of fees now is that there are too many transactions now for them to fit in the blocks which are limited to one megabyte, so demand exceeds capacity and people have to "compete", so to speak, to get their transactions into a block.

The solutions are either to increase the block size or alter the protocol in other ways (like SegWit and/or LN) which increase the capacity and implement scaling.

So basically there needs to be a priority group as there are too many transactions being sent, and a fixed fee isn't possible.

I understood the concept. But if it worked that way, how would the miners be paid to continue mining after the production of new Bitcoins ended if there is no need to pay any fees?

The amount of computing power being dedicated to the Bitcoin network is impossible to underestimate. The block reward in US dollars is now higher than it was before the block reward was cut in half last year in July (it halves every four years, roughly), because the block reward is denominated in Bitcoin. As ASIC and computer technology develop while the Bitcoin price goes up, the amount of miners actually needed gets smaller and smaller relative to the amount that there are.

So transaction fees will not be necessary for a very long time - as the price rises, computer technology gets better and the block reward only decreases quite gradually relative to these factors, transaction fees will barely be needed at all for another 50 years or so at least. When they are, they should still not have to be very much to pay for "enough" miners (not that there is a precise number).

skorupi17

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Quote from: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 12:34:05 PM

Quote from: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 12:33:08 PM

Quote from: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 12:26:42 PM

I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.

Well that is because of the continuous rise in bitcoin's price. I will give you that. However, Bitcoin has a smaller unit, which is the Satoshi, which lower class can afford. I do not think that bitcoin will be exclusive for higher/rich class only in the near future, middle class should never be out of the picture here. Well I personally do not know why are we talking about social class here since we are talking about transaction fees being fixed.

Yeah it has a small unit but the fees are outrageous. Who would pay $6-$8 for a smaller transaction to get confirmed? Buy a coffee with BTC if you can anymore

So we are basically talking about using bitcoin on a daily basis, right? I do agree that paying so much in a transaction is so hilarious. That justifies that Bitcoin is very impractical to be used in a daily manner. It is like paying gold instead of fiat. This is the reason why I suggested the transaction fees to be fixed (#2 is applicable in this scenario). So having micro transaction would not become a pain.

Quote from: amacar2 on May 21, 2017, 12:40:35 PM

Quote from: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 12:24:19 PM

2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair.

Block reward will keep on decreasing while number of miners will keep on rising, so miners will not earn any profit if fees are fixed and those miners will not find mining bitcoin profitable which will weaken the bitcoin network.

Can you elaborate this further. I cannot quite comprehend what exactly your point is.

How come that mining bitcoin will be not profitable? If you would consider #2 there will be a fixed fee per byte. Imagine how many transaction there is per day. Regardless of the block reward, they will have profit from mining. On the other hand, having competitors in mining is not the concern of the transaction fee at all.

bitcoinstress

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I think the transaction fee is fixed but because too many transactions are long not get confirmed then there is the increase transaction fee.

Snorek

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Quote from: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 12:26:42 PM

I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.

No unless we will have scaling upgrade, it should be in near future, within next 3 months.
Unfortunately until this happen there is no solution for long confrontation times ad ridiculous fees,
you can try to use tx accelerators, but is is nonviable solution in the long run.

Quote from: Bit_Happy on May 21, 2017, 12:32:13 PM

Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. Tongue

And why suddenly high transaction fees will make bitcoin a ponzi? It is only temporary hiccup which will be fixed, hopefully soon.

Searing

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Clueless!

Quote from: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 12:24:19 PM

Waiting for the confirmation of every transaction has been a headache to us bitcoin users. And in order to avoid a long wait, higher fee is required which adds to our headache, well who would want to pay more just to gain priority, right? We just gain priority in paying more but we lose Bitcoin on the other hand. I have suggestion in mind that I really don't know if it is applicable or not. Suggestions are always welcome, right?

1. Why not make the transaction fee be fixed? Regardless of the size of transaction in byte. So if the transaction fee is equal to all transaction, some greedy miners would follow a First In, First Out. No priority. All equal.

OR

2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair.

So what do you think?

IMHO ....why fix the transaction fee and block size etc....well ....it artificially keeps the price of btc low...with consensus we'd be looking at 4k btc imho
so the more FUD you have the more you can keep the price down...if you are a whale or big player..thus more coin accumulation

only way consensus will be reached imho is if btc dumps back to say 1,000 usd and the other crypto's surge....until that happens ..no incentive

by those stirring all this up to not continue to do the same FUD

I'm likely wrong...feel free to point my errors out on this...but comparing it to other markets where big players can keep price low and accumulate..it sure smells the same imho Sad

TryNinja

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Quote from: Nagadota on May 21, 2017, 12:35:47 PM

Both of those options are impossible.

Transaction fees don't exist solely to pay miners for their work - if there were no transaction fees at all, they would still receive far more than enough as a block reward to keep the network secure.

Originally, transaction fees were just a tiny extra donation to help get your transaction confirmed sooner than other people and not everyone would pay transaction fees.

That's no longer the reason for transaction fees. The reason for the amount of fees now is that there are too many transactions now for them to fit in the blocks which are limited to one megabyte, so demand exceeds capacity and people have to "compete", so to speak, to get their transactions into a block.

The solutions are either to increase the block size or alter the protocol in other ways (like SegWit and/or LN) which increase the capacity and implement scaling.

So basically there needs to be a priority group as there are too many transactions being sent, and a fixed fee isn't possible.

I understood the concept. But if it worked that way, how would the miners be paid to continue mining after the production of new Bitcoins ended if there is no need to pay any fees?

ImHash

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3 letters LTC, bitcoin miners are mining it since 2011 and now grew tired to stare at their coins so they have decided to put bitcoin improvement on hold until they can sell all of their LTCs, the reason why it's still so cheap is because some of the miners are greedy and dumping their stashes and when run out of coins you'll see the price to jump like crazy.

Another reason:

a minority group of old timers revolted against the leading majority and due to the consensus design of bitcoin only if a version can successfully mine 750 blocks out of last 1000 blocks the rules will change in favor of said version. you could check "coin.dance" for more detailed information.

Or you could become a miner yourself and start earning the said high fees and ignore the community which that is the whole reasons for an open source and decentralized software.

amacar2

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Quote from: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 12:24:19 PM

2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair.

Block reward will keep on decreasing while number of miners will keep on rising, so miners will not earn any profit if fees are fixed and those miners will not find mining bitcoin profitable which will weaken the bitcoin network.

LLec

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I agree with this.
Have it fixed because even my wallets I send from are confused now. Not knowing how much to put on the transaction to be capable to send it. I tried one this morning and it applied 0.0002btc on a 0.016btc send.
It would never confirm at 50sat/bytes if I didn't accelerate the transaction right after I sent it. Roll Eyes

This is just getting ridiculous now. Undecided

The banks now have allowed their account holders when you sign up with them UNLIMITED transactions without having any frees applied to their accounts (use to be $1.50-$2.50 per transaction, atleast at my bank! Embarrassed

)
But now they give new customers who sign up with their accounts held with them no-fees charged on all transactions and not just to a limited amount of 10 or 12 of them allowed per month before they start charing them per transaction so not to flood their system.

Nagadota

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Both of those options are impossible.

Transaction fees don't exist solely to pay miners for their work - if there were no transaction fees at all, they would still receive far more than enough as a block reward to keep the network secure.

Originally, transaction fees were just a tiny extra donation to help get your transaction confirmed sooner than other people and not everyone would pay transaction fees.

That's no longer the reason for transaction fees. The reason for the amount of fees now is that there are too many transactions now for them to fit in the blocks which are limited to one megabyte, so demand exceeds capacity and people have to "compete", so to speak, to get their transactions into a block.

The solutions are either to increase the block size or alter the protocol in other ways (like SegWit and/or LN) which increase the capacity and implement scaling.

So basically there needs to be a priority group as there are too many transactions being sent, and a fixed fee isn't possible.

virtualdn

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Quote from: skorupi17 on May 21, 2017, 12:33:08 PM

Quote from: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 12:26:42 PM

I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.

Well that is because of the continuous rise in bitcoin's price. I will give you that. However, Bitcoin has a smaller unit, which is the Satoshi, which lower class can afford. I do not think that bitcoin will be exclusive for higher/rich class only in the near future, middle class should never be out of the picture here. Well I personally do not know why are we talking about social class here since we are talking about transaction fees being fixed.

Yeah it has a small unit but the fees are outrageous. Who would pay $6-$8 for a smaller transaction to get confirmed? Buy a coffee with BTC if you can anymore

skorupi17

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Quote from: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 12:26:42 PM

I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.

Well that is because of the continuous rise in bitcoin's price. I will give you that. However, Bitcoin has a smaller unit, which is the Satoshi, which lower class can afford. I do not think that bitcoin will be exclusive for higher/rich class only in the near future, middle class should never be out of the picture here. Well I personally do not know why are we talking about social class here since we are talking about transaction fees being fixed.

Bit_Happy

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Quote from: virtualdn on May 21, 2017, 12:26:42 PM

I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.

Bitcoin is quickly turning into a Tulip Bulb Mania / Brilliantly Crafted Ponzi. Tongue

virtualdn

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I think BTC will become a tool for the rich class only anytime soon.

skorupi17

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Waiting for the confirmation of every transaction has been a headache to us bitcoin users. And in order to avoid a long wait, higher fee is required which adds to our headache, well who would want to pay more just to gain priority, right? We just gain priority in paying more but we lose Bitcoin on the other hand. I have suggestion in mind that I really don't know if it is applicable or not. Suggestions are always welcome, right?

1. Why not make the transaction fee be fixed? Regardless of the size of transaction in byte. So if the transaction fee is equal to all transaction, some greedy miners would follow a First In, First Out. No priority. All equal.

OR

2. A fixed transaction fee which is proportional to the size in bytes. Example 100 Satoshi/Byte no more, no less. The fee will be fixed and no one can add fee to gain priority. Seems fair.

So what do you think?

Topic: Why not FIX the Transaction Fee? - page 2. (Read 1440 times)