Why not just print dollars? - page 32.

Damiantroll

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Quote from: deisik on August 09, 2015, 08:32:03 AM

Quote from: Damiantroll on August 09, 2015, 12:03:42 AM

Doing that would devalue the US dollar to ridiculous levels. It would probably be worse than 3 Wiemar Republics and would turn the US into a super-nazi state.

~~not that there's anything wrong with that.~~

Isn't that what FRS had been doing during QEs? The newly printed money went directly to financial markets, them hitting new highs. Did it contribute to the devaluation of the US dollar? If it did, then why is the USD index soaring? I guess in today's perverted world with the currency wars raging, it is not so straightforward as it had been in the good old days...

The days of Weimar Republic

Well yes, the Federal Reserve does print money, but it's not nearly on the level that OP was talking about, I.E the federal debt. It works well enough now but if it was sent into overdrive to pay off our debts things would get out of hand really fast.

deisik

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Quote from: aso118 on August 09, 2015, 08:36:31 PM

Quote from: deisik on August 09, 2015, 08:32:03 AM

Isn't that what FRS had been doing during QEs? The newly printed money went directly to financial markets, them hitting new highs. Did it contribute to the devaluation of the US dollar? If it did, then why is the USD index soaring? I guess in today's perverted world with the currency wars raging, it is not so straightforward as it had been in the good old days...

It might have a lag effect. Which is why the US is so concerned about inflation and ended QE.
Interest rates are going to go up some time this year too. This is a pre-emptive measure to prevent high inflation.

Or they might just know what they have been doing, that is how to pass between Scylla and Charybdis with no particular damage, to themselves. Personally, I don't think they are really going to raise interest rates in September (or any time soon, for that matter), though they are highly interested that people think so...

In any case, only time will tell

johnyj

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Quote from: aso118 on August 09, 2015, 08:36:31 PM

Quote from: deisik on August 09, 2015, 08:32:03 AM

Isn't that what FRS had been doing during QEs? The newly printed money went directly to financial markets, them hitting new highs. Did it contribute to the devaluation of the US dollar? If it did, then why is the USD index soaring? I guess in today's perverted world with the currency wars raging, it is not so straightforward as it had been in the good old days...

It might have a lag effect. Which is why the US is so concerned about inflation and ended QE.
Interest rates are going to go up some time this year too. This is a pre-emptive measure to prevent high inflation.

And there might never be a lag effect. Those too-simple-that-even-an-idiot-can-understand economy theories in economy books are only a very small subset of the giant central bank game. Central banks can make things works like those books described, but they can also change it when they see fit

They can print several trillion dollars and pump up the stock market and assets price, at the same time they tighten the loan condition so that majority of business and consumers are not qualified for a loan, then you have it: Increased money supply and deflation

dollarneed

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as we know that the price of goods depend on the ratio of the amount of money and the amount of inventory. If the goods more than the money supply, then prices will tend to fall. Conversely, if the quantity of goods less than the amount of money in circulation, then the prices will tend to rise. Therefore, the printing of money indirectly also determined by the things above, in order to avoid inflation.

aso118

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Quote from: deisik on August 09, 2015, 08:32:03 AM

Isn't that what FRS had been doing during QEs? The newly printed money went directly to financial markets, them hitting new highs. Did it contribute to the devaluation of the US dollar? If it did, then why is the USD index soaring? I guess in today's perverted world with the currency wars raging, it is not so straightforward as it had been in the good old days...

It might have a lag effect. Which is why the US is so concerned about inflation and ended QE.
Interest rates are going to go up some time this year too. This is a pre-emptive measure to prevent high inflation.

deisik

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Quote from: Damiantroll on August 09, 2015, 12:03:42 AM

Doing that would devalue the US dollar to ridiculous levels. It would probably be worse than 3 Wiemar Republics and would turn the US into a super-nazi state.

~~not that there's anything wrong with that.~~

Isn't that what FRS had been doing during QEs? The newly printed money went directly to financial markets, them hitting new highs. Did it contribute to the devaluation of the US dollar? If it did, then why is the USD index soaring? I guess in today's perverted world with the currency wars raging, it is not so straightforward as it had been in the good old days...

The days of Weimar Republic

tonycamp

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because besides illegal and get you into trouble its piracy and terror of finances and every security bank will be on over you no need sorry

Damiantroll

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Doing that would devalue the US dollar to ridiculous levels. It would probably be worse than 3 Wiemar Republics and would turn the US into a super-nazi state.

~~not that there's anything wrong with that.~~

HarHarHar9965

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Quote from: deisik on August 08, 2015, 11:33:56 AM

Quote from: omahapoker on August 08, 2015, 04:53:12 AM

Quote from: mookid on August 03, 2015, 02:03:44 AM

Bitcoin is slowly making an impact on some people in my country, we have a local Facebook group with about 4,000 people in it. Our local Bitcoin market (surbitcoin.com) is one of the most important bitcoin markets in south america (by BTC volume). Lot's of people are investing or buying bitcoins with their savings so they don't get devaluated by inflation, (Inflation is about 150% from January to July) think about this for a second, our inflation rate went up by 150% in seven months...

*lol* 150 percent? Oo That actually is worse than bitcoin. I guess we have found a country where bitcoin can be seen as a safe investment. *lol*

If the inflation is really that high then bitcoin really is an alternative and it would be easy to convince people.

Though on the other hand, they could buy foreign currencies too and these would be even more stable than bitcoins.

You may not be able to buy foreign currencies that easy. There can be prohibitive spreads, and fiddling with foreign currency may be frowned upon by the government. Not that Bitcoin would be much different in the latter aspect, but at least you have a chance (to escape the Big Brother going after you)...

Getting your hands on foreign currency is not as easy as it might sound like, the government is very suspicious about money going in and out of the country, such events are usually monitored way too often. The very reason why bitcoin is disliked by govts is because they cannot track what and how much money is coming and going in from the country, because privacy baby.

deisik

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Quote from: omahapoker on August 08, 2015, 04:53:12 AM

Quote from: mookid on August 03, 2015, 02:03:44 AM

Bitcoin is slowly making an impact on some people in my country, we have a local Facebook group with about 4,000 people in it. Our local Bitcoin market (surbitcoin.com) is one of the most important bitcoin markets in south america (by BTC volume). Lot's of people are investing or buying bitcoins with their savings so they don't get devaluated by inflation, (Inflation is about 150% from January to July) think about this for a second, our inflation rate went up by 150% in seven months...

*lol* 150 percent? Oo That actually is worse than bitcoin. I guess we have found a country where bitcoin can be seen as a safe investment. *lol*

If the inflation is really that high then bitcoin really is an alternative and it would be easy to convince people.

Though on the other hand, they could buy foreign currencies too and these would be even more stable than bitcoins.

You may not be able to buy foreign currencies that easy. There can be prohibitive spreads, and fiddling with foreign currency may be frowned upon by the government. Not that Bitcoin would be much different in the latter aspect, but at least you have a chance...

A chance to escape the Big Brother going after you

Miracal

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Quote from: omahapoker on August 08, 2015, 04:53:12 AM

Quote from: mookid on August 03, 2015, 02:03:44 AM

Bitcoin is slowly making an impact on some people in my country, we have a local Facebook group with about 4,000 people in it. Our local Bitcoin market (surbitcoin.com) is one of the most important bitcoin markets in south america (by BTC volume). Lot's of people are investing or buying bitcoins with their savings so they don't get devaluated by inflation, (Inflation is about 150% from January to July) think about this for a second, our inflation rate went up by 150% in seven months...

*lol* 150 percent? Oo That actually is worse than bitcoin. I guess we have found a country where bitcoin can be seen as a safe investment. *lol*

If the inflation is really that high then bitcoin really is an alternative and it would be easy to convince people.

Though on the other hand, they could buy foreign currencies too and these would be even more stable than bitcoins.

Bitcoin's stability has a lot to do with supply and demand, the affects could be positive or negative depending on how the situations are. People who have already purchased bitcoin will see the price value of their invest multiply 30x40 times if a strong country chooses bitcoin as their national currency. But I don't think such a nation can afford to buy enough bitcoins for reserve value...

omahapoker

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Quote from: mookid on August 03, 2015, 02:03:44 AM

Bitcoin is slowly making an impact on some people in my country, we have a local Facebook group with about 4,000 people in it. Our local Bitcoin market (surbitcoin.com) is one of the most important bitcoin markets in south america (by BTC volume). Lot's of people are investing or buying bitcoins with their savings so they don't get devaluated by inflation, (Inflation is about 150% from January to July) think about this for a second, our inflation rate went up by 150% in seven months...

*lol* 150 percent? Oo That actually is worse than bitcoin. I guess we have found a country where bitcoin can be seen as a safe investment. *lol*

If the inflation is really that high then bitcoin really is an alternative and it would be easy to convince people.

Though on the other hand, they could buy foreign currencies too and these would be even more stable than bitcoins.

omahapoker

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Quote from: AtheistAKASaneBrain on August 02, 2015, 07:56:43 AM

Quote from: Possum577 on August 02, 2015, 12:36:00 AM

Quote from: Meuh6879 on August 01, 2015, 06:50:12 PM

the good point of bitcoin ... is that you can print paper money if you want : https://www.bitaddress.org

and, it's real value ! Cheesy

You're right that bitcoin can't be printed when more is needed.

You're wrong that bitcoin has real value. The value is perceived because all of us place value upon it...just as we do fiat currency.

There is no tangible thing that supports the value of bitcoin, that can prove there is value to it.

There's no Gold, no Silver, no other tangible item that exists in the world...just the promise that only so much bitcoin can every be mined and that the validity of transactions and balances are verified by the community that uses it.

Nothing has intrinsic value. Gold has no intrinsic value, same for silver. No one cares about gold and silver beyond what can you buy with it. That's all that matters, if people accept it in exchange and good and services it's money. So Bitcoin is the best form of money we've ever seen.

Gold has an intrinsic value. It surely is not a currency. It's value comes from what it can be used for. It's valuable for electronics as a good electronic conductor for example. Or it can be turned to jewelry that has a value.

You can do nothing like that with fiat or bitcoin. The paper is worth way way less, as well as the material the fiat coins are made of. Ok, maybe one could say that it has an intrinsic value then but it's far from the level of value it has a fiat currency items.

omahapoker

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Quote from: OROBTC on August 02, 2015, 12:50:49 AM

...

There's an argument, that I have seen explored a little at Zero Hedge, that printing money would be better than taxation.

This is an exotic argument that I have not had a chance nor even the ability (yet) to properly wrap my brain around with it.

A first thought:

Eliminating taxation, of course, would likely anger the poor (they pay low taxes, except various consumption taxes). Envy and resentment would likely prevent this idea of eliminating taxation altogether.

* * *

I am already convinced that gold ought not be linked to currency (that is, no "Gold Standard"). A Gold Standard would function poorly IMO. Gold's best and highest value use is as a Store of Value.

Gold <> Money in that sense. Most define money as roughly filling three roles: Unit of Account, Medium of Exchange, and Store of Value. But, we are perhaps soon at the point of monetary failure, the US$ will not (cannot) fulfill those three roles of "money".

That's actually an interesting idea. When you print more money then you devalue all the money in existence. Which would turn out to be like a tax on all existing money. Everyone who owns money of that kind has less value later. Which means rich people would pay the same percentage than poor people. Higher taxes for rich persons.

I think the poor would not have a problem because the rich pay more in numbers.

The only problem with that is that it would hurt the economy of that country. The currency needs to be stable. If the currency gets devalued then it would lead to losses in economy from export. The businesses would get the same amount of currency but it's worth less. And when the currency would rise in value it would be the opposite. The import would be hurt because they would pay more value than they should.

So i fear that option will never be tested.

misterycoins

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huge increase in the amount of money in circulation makes the currency less valuable. With the value of money shrinking, the government has to print ever more of it to meet its commitments. Very rapidly this turns into a spiral of hyperinflation.

HarHarHar9965

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Quote from: bitcollins85 on August 06, 2015, 09:47:34 PM

The government doesn't actually just print money to control the amount of money in circulation. The fed decides rates the banks will pay to transfer money and to borrow money, and these rates affect the amount of money banks lend out and thus the amount of money in circulation.

I always believed in a world where the government is compassionate about its people and everybody wants to help each other and make lives better (except certain assholes) just because we leave in a society. I realized that I was living a lie and was just delusional, now either people can call me cynical or too negative, I learnt so many things about this world and how dark it truly is. Our govt is an asshole, and I really hate dollar/fiat now.

bitcollins85

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The government doesn't actually just print money to control the amount of money in circulation. The fed decides rates the banks will pay to transfer money and to borrow money, and these rates affect the amount of money banks lend out and thus the amount of money in circulation.

Miracal

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Quote from: spazzdla on August 06, 2015, 02:56:30 PM

Quote from: Possum577 on August 02, 2015, 12:36:00 AM

Quote from: Meuh6879 on August 01, 2015, 06:50:12 PM

the good point of bitcoin ... is that you can print paper money if you want : https://www.bitaddress.org

and, it's real value ! Cheesy

You're right that bitcoin can't be printed when more is needed.

You're wrong that bitcoin has real value. The value is perceived because all of us place value upon it...just as we do fiat currency.

There is no tangible thing that supports the value of bitcoin, that can prove there is value to it.

There's no Gold, no Silver, no other tangible item that exists in the world...just the promise that only so much bitcoin can every be mined and that the validity of transactions and balances are verified by the community that uses it.

Gold and silver have effectively zero real value, they really don't. They only are worth such insane amounts because people treat them as money.

Bitcoin, USD, Precious metal real value = effectivally nothing.

The only reason anything has value is because people give it the value, people bestow their trust in it and believe in it sincerely, even notes say 'In God we Trust'. The whole idea of accepting money is that we trust the person we are exchanging it with, that it provides value to the good and services exchanged. Fiat,gold,crypto. Anything could be considered worthless tomorrow if people stopped valuing it.

spazzdla

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Quote from: Possum577 on August 02, 2015, 12:36:00 AM

Quote from: Meuh6879 on August 01, 2015, 06:50:12 PM

the good point of bitcoin ... is that you can print paper money if you want : https://www.bitaddress.org

and, it's real value ! Cheesy

You're right that bitcoin can't be printed when more is needed.

You're wrong that bitcoin has real value. The value is perceived because all of us place value upon it...just as we do fiat currency.

There is no tangible thing that supports the value of bitcoin, that can prove there is value to it.

There's no Gold, no Silver, no other tangible item that exists in the world...just the promise that only so much bitcoin can every be mined and that the validity of transactions and balances are verified by the community that uses it.

Gold and silver have effectively zero real value, they really don't. They only are worth such insane amounts because people treat them as money.

Bitcoin, USD, Precious metal real value = effectivally nothing.

Falconer

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Quote from: lissandra on August 05, 2015, 07:24:20 PM

because we all love zimbabwe money am I right? lol.

No, I dont Cheesy

Quote from: lissandra on August 05, 2015, 07:24:20 PM

its just a matter of time the shit show hits everyone in the face. Like how we see the whole melt down with greece and euro is similar how the u.s. will go through but as for the u.s. there is no where else to run.

The greece crisis was not caused by inflation, since Greece using euro, not its own currency

Quote from: lissandra on August 05, 2015, 07:24:20 PM

inflation sucks so much, a simple chocolate bar that costs $1 will be $2-3 because of inflation..

Without inflation, the economy of your country will be messy, and even your chocolate will be $1,000. In the other word, inflation is a limitation to how much the money should be printed imo.

Topic: Why not just print dollars? - page 32. (Read 30063 times)