Why not use Exchange instead of Mixer? - page 4.

serjent05

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Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 01:56:22 AM

Ofcourse I am talking about using exchanges without KYC. Binance allow unverified accounts to make withdrawals upto 2BTC per day which is quite ok.
About timestamps, who knows mixers too maintain logs of every mixing performed on their site. It is not difficult task in PHP to maintain such logs.

The transaction can still be traced even if you are using an exchange that does not require KYC. They keep their logs of transaction unlike mixers which I believe clear their logs after sometime. So that is the huge difference.

Quote from: Sancho18 on October 03, 2019, 01:49:33 AM

Quote from: mocacinno on October 03, 2019, 01:38:00 AM

...but if you trust the mixer, it's much more anonymous than an exchange.

Yes, but there’s a higher risk of getting bitcoins from the mixer, which can be marked as “dirty”.

I think exchanges are not exempted to receive "dirty" Bitcoin, they do not regularly check where these Bitcoin are coming from. So from an exchange that does not require KYC, there is a possibility that this thing may happen.

MetalGear

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Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 01:35:36 AM

So, Mixers provide service of shuffling bitcoins or provide addresses loaded with bitcoins along with private keys. In short, they provide service so to create anonymity between sender's and receiver's address so that no one can trace the transaction.
My question is why not use Exchanges? When we deposit funds on exchange, bitcoins get deposited on exchange's cold wallet. But when we withdraw funds, withdraw gets processed from exchange's hot wallet. So in short, it is very easy to do anonymous transfer by depositing funds on exchange and withdrawing to other addresses. Why to pay 1-3% fees on Mixers when it could be done for much less on Exchanges. Exchanges like Binance charge just 0.0005 BTC to process withdrawals.

Mixers guarantees anonimity of the trader's address both the reciever and sender by breaking the links of both addresses making them essentially untraceable. Meanwhile, exchange requires log data, so if unfortunately the exchange got hacked and entered by hacker obviously your data will be put at an abvious risk including your bitcoin and the transactions that was supposed to be private. So why use mixers instead of exchange? It is simply because of the guaranteed anonimity of my identity, transactions, and address.

nutella_11

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In my opinion, exchange is definitely better than mixer. But you need to find a great one, not every exchange is reliable.
Anyway, exchanges are safer, and you can trade there. Check out exchanges like Kraken or CoinDeal, these two are my favourites. In reference to CoinDeal, this is the most profitable exchanges for trading imo because they have free deposits and what's more - you can use Mistertango to deposit your funds in EUR (your funds will be settled in 3h).

buwaytress

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 03, 2019, 05:54:01 AM

Exchanges don't even need to "fall in the hands of authorities". They are quite willing to hand over your data whilst still operating. Just ask any of the thousands of Coinbase users now getting hounded by the IRS for tax money.

And not only are they quite willing, they have done it before and will continue to do it for as long as they're trying to cover their own asses.

I almost am tempted to talk about the incompetency of exchanges' own accounting systems and their shocking negligence in keeping compliant (if they were ever interested in doing that in the first place), but it's enough to say that they'll give up everything and anything -- even data they're not supposed to, as soon as the screws turn on them.

mocacinno

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 03, 2019, 05:54:01 AM

Exchanges don't even need to "fall in the hands of authorities". They are quite willing to hand over your data whilst still operating. Just ask any of the thousands of Coinbase users now getting hounded by the IRS for tax money.

Exactly, this was my main point... Sure, mixers *could* fall into the hands of the authority, they *could* be honeypots... However, exchanges usually have a direct link to the governement built-in as part of their procedure. The argument that it's better to use an exchange to mix your coins instead of a mixer because a mixer *could* be forced to hand over (hopefully nonexistent) logs in case they ever get traced is false (imho).

Using 2 or 3 mixers in a chain would decrease your risk even further, especially if you work over tor... As for the trust factor, do you know how many exchanges pulled an exit scam/went bancrupt/got hacked over the last couple of years? Don't trust anybody, that's the main idear...

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 03:39:30 AM

For example, you can deposit funds on Yobit, then create YoBit token and then redeem that token on other YoBit account and make withdrawals from that account. There you go, you are fully anonymous!

That is not even close to being anonymous. It will be completely obvious to anyone at YoBit exactly what you did, and they will be able to easily track your coins moving forward. Even people outside of YoBit would be able to be fairly confident that the coins were linked by looking at the size of the deposits/withdrawals. You should also assume that all exchanges are willingly sharing data with governments around the world because, well, most are. I'd actually say that your suggestion is less anonymous than doing nothing - you are giving YoBit data about your account names, email addresses, IP addresses, and deposit/withdrawal address which they otherwise would not have.

Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 02:30:40 AM

If big mixers like BestMixer can fall in the hands of authorities then just imagine how anonymous small mixers are.

Exchanges don't even need to "fall in the hands of authorities". They are quite willing to hand over your data whilst still operating. Just ask any of the thousands of Coinbase users now getting hounded by the IRS for tax money.

bitbunnny

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I wouldn't say there is no difference if you use mixer or exchange. Although I beleive there is no more absolute anonimity in Bitcoin anymore, by using mixer you will get at least some privacy.
Exchanges are obliged to KYC, that is needed to run legitimate business and if any law enforcement agency requests such data they are obliged to give them, including the transaction history.

SummerBliss

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Quote from: Slow death on October 03, 2019, 03:18:41 AM

Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 01:35:36 AM

So in short, it is very easy to do anonymous transfer by depositing funds on exchange and withdrawing to other addresses. Why to pay 1-3% fees on Mixers when it could be done for much less on Exchanges. Exchanges like Binance charge just 0.0005 BTC to process withdrawals.

You have a point in your argument, but exchanges require kyc which means that people can use exchanges only if they have funds from honest places. A criminal will not take stolen funds to exchange, he will take stolen funds to mixers, which is why I believe that in a few years governments will pursue the mixers more severely and I believe the punishment for executing a mixer may be as severe as possible. Note that most exchanges and even online casinos are asking people to do KYC and it won't be long before the wallets also make people do KYC

Agreed! More and more governments across the world are making it difficult for people to use cryptocurrencies without restrictions. Days are not far when mixers scope will be limited to very less countries. In my country, it is not possible to run a business like mixer. With time, more and more countries will start banning services like mixing.
Also, it is not correct to expect that people with dirty money will ever prefer Exchange over Mixers not matter how high are the fees.

shield132

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Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 01:35:36 AM

So, Mixers provide service of shuffling bitcoins or provide addresses loaded with bitcoins along with private keys. In short, they provide service so to create anonymity between sender's and receiver's address so that no one can trace the transaction.
My question is why not use Exchanges? When we deposit funds on exchange, bitcoins get deposited on exchange's cold wallet. But when we withdraw funds, withdraw gets processed from exchange's hot wallet. So in short, it is very easy to do anonymous transfer by depositing funds on exchange and withdrawing to other addresses. Why to pay 1-3% fees on Mixers when it could be done for much less on Exchanges. Exchanges like Binance charge just 0.0005 BTC to process withdrawals.

Haven't you ever thought that exchanges require KYC and every transaction/log/activity that happens from your account is recorded and what's even worse is that it's done by a regulated service provider, something that has common with government.
While mixers require zero KYC, at least this is guaranteed, we can't 100% surely say that they don't keep any log but for example if we remind bitmixer, it was the greatest and biggest mixer ever, top with anonimity and very trustworthy. Also to add, you can use tor link for better anonimity, none mixer will ask you about fund sources and etc, all you do is deposit and get, without problems and traces.

aysg76

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Quote from: betty11 on October 03, 2019, 02:47:22 AM

Exchanges make use of KYC for some daily volume of withdrawal, while an exchange like liquid in Japan, requires full KYC before one can even make withdrawals. Well, exchanges can always know customers that make withdrawals even without KYC as they do tie their deposit address to their account even without KYC.

Do you think it is hard to fool any site online? Without KYC, you can easily hide your correct location, real name and what not. Nobody can trace back to you.
For example, you can deposit funds on Yobit, then create YoBit token and then redeem that token on other YoBit account and make withdrawals from that account. There you go, you are fully anonymous!

Slow death

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Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 01:35:36 AM

So in short, it is very easy to do anonymous transfer by depositing funds on exchange and withdrawing to other addresses. Why to pay 1-3% fees on Mixers when it could be done for much less on Exchanges. Exchanges like Binance charge just 0.0005 BTC to process withdrawals.

You have a point in your argument, but exchanges require kyc which means that people can use exchanges only if they have funds from honest places. A criminal will not take stolen funds to exchange, he will take stolen funds to mixers, which is why I believe that in a few years governments will pursue the mixers more severely and I believe the punishment for executing a mixer may be as severe as possible. Note that most exchanges and even online casinos are asking people to do KYC and it won't be long before the wallets also make people do KYC

elda34b

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Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 02:30:40 AM

As far as I remember, BestMixer provided most of the mixing data to Dutch Authorities once they were confiscated by Dutch law.
We cannot rely on mixers too. They are not as anonymous as we think. If big mixers like BestMixer can fall in the hands of authorities then just imagine how anonymous small mixers are.
So it can be easily assumed when interfered by authorities, both exchanges and mixers can't be trusted.

Nobody should rely on mixer or exchange, or whatever it is. You can't stay anonymous forever, so your best bet is to mix the available options to increase your privacy. Bestmixer or similar mixer which uses the same strategy mostly keeps logs to maintain the data, while other mixers use another technique, such as giving private key to several preloaded addresses, i.e. Chipmixer.

If you want a better alternative, then use Coinjoin, and combine it with Monero. Promoting exchange as an alternative to a mixer is just wrong imo. Even if you use non KYC exchange, they still require you to register and not to mention they have the logs of every withdrawal/deposit.

betty11

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Exchanges make use of KYC for some daily volume of withdrawal, while an exchange like liquid in Japan, requires full KYC before one can even make withdrawals. Well, exchanges can always know customers that make withdrawals even without KYC as they do tie their deposit address to their account even without KYC.

aysg76

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Quote from: LeGaulois on October 03, 2019, 02:11:29 AM

Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 01:56:22 AM

Quote from: mocacinno on October 03, 2019, 01:38:00 AM

~UNQUOTED

Ofcourse I am talking about using exchanges without KYC. Binance allow unverified accounts to make withdrawals upto 2BTC per day which is quite ok.
About timestamps, who knows mixers too maintain logs of every mixing performed on their site. It is not difficult task in PHP to maintain such logs.

An exchange without KYC doesn't matter and doesn't really help. It can be easy to find which exchange your address belong to and since they keep your IP, etc... It can be enough to identify you because they will have no problem to snitch and will be very happy to do it.

Logs are kept a minimum, few days, exchanges store your information for years.

As far as I remember, BestMixer provided most of the mixing data to Dutch Authorities once they were confiscated by Dutch law.
We cannot rely on mixers too. They are not as anonymous as we think. If big mixers like BestMixer can fall in the hands of authorities then just imagine how anonymous small mixers are.
So it can be easily assumed when interfered by authorities, both exchanges and mixers can't be trusted.

teosanru

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This is a visual representation of what a mixer does. I understand the fact that it could look easier and cheaper to do it with an exchange but this involves a huge manual work which includes manually sending transactions at an address from one exchange account. Now the thing is even if it looks safe but the amount involved sometimes become a problem. Let's see for example binance has a fees of 0.0005 btc per withdrawal now. Now in a mixer, taking example of chipmixer you can distribute your money into smallest unit which is 0.001 and one unit needs to be paid as fees. So spending 0.001 extra for almost 100 times more accuracy with mixing and all automatic work is worth it.

Bttzed03

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AjithBtc

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The use of exchanges and mixers were entirely different. Exchanges were meant for the trading between different assets. Mixers were designed to perform the mixing service, which makes the transaction anonymous. What we do through exchanges weren't completely anonymous, because it isn't possible to trade on exchanges without proper KYC fulfillment.

ene1980

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Quote from: aysg76 on October 03, 2019, 01:35:36 AM

So, Mixers provide service of shuffling bitcoins or provide addresses loaded with bitcoins along with private keys. In short, they provide service so to create anonymity between sender's and receiver's address so that no one can trace the transaction.
My question is why not use Exchanges?

If you are planning to use exchanges and other platforms to wash the coins then you might get your coins and account getting a ban, you cannot deposit money without trading and then withdraw doing nothing and if you are doing that with huge amounts your account will be restricted and you need to verify your identity, so if you are looking for privacy then mixers are the place to go which are dedicated services for privacy.

mersal

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Trust me nothing is completely anonymous,when you choose exchanges to mix coins rather than a mixer you are trusting more centralized and regulated thing,do you know that they will report your transactions to your government?

That is why mixers were designed for,but its still not ensure complete anonymity after mixing coins.

dentolas

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BTC is not made to be anonymous, and every service that envolves a third party is also not anonymous as you need to trust the third party (unless the third party can prove that there is absolutely no info retained about the service - not sure if this is feasible)
If you need privacy or anonimity, you need to look for privacy coins... not all of them provide a solid service, as there are also some coins like Dash that envolve third parties... I would check out monero, beam, veil, grin... and so on

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