Topic: why revolutions and movements fail at their desired outcome - page 2. (Read 409 times)

I agree, civilian protest always look nice on the news, because it is so dramatic to have burning stores and looting people on the street. But if you put the number people in a city into relation to the number of protests, we see that is a very small number of the population that actually engages in the protests. And we also don't really know if it is a natural protest, or something organised by some rich people who want to use if it for a political agenda.

congress does not react to protests

congress was undersiege in january and yet the screams of the trumpettes was not heard or even discussed.
congress does however react to petitions and lobbying

the boston tea party events. were not where britain responded to the citizens of placard waving protests.. but instead the US government sending the british monarchy a petition (protest/resolution)

this is the legal method that got the british government to listen to the american government

civilian protests/riots were not the cause.. it was legal paperwork such as petitions, resolutions, contracts, acts and lawsuits..
the civilian protests were just social/media drama to layer on as as an 'after-fact' if it was 'power of the people'
much like when hurricanes happen. some people then say 'it was an act of god'
nope it was an atmospheric event

Congress reacts to protests.  Think of them as an escalated letter to congress.   In democracy, a protest is about making your voice heard  (not only to law makers, but also to other citizens).  Because US representative are elected every 2, 4, or 6 years, they would be foolish to simply ignore the protests, at least if they hope to be reelected. 

The British responded to the Boston Tea Party directly with The Coercive Acts, basically the British decided to increase taxes even more which in turn gained more support for a Revolution, unifying the patriots.

This is why the founders (who were  were adamant about including the right to protest in the US constitution - so that Congress would be forced to listen and respond accordingly.  The civil rights act  is probably the best example of this.  

depends on how what and who
most people write silly petitions like
'sign this if you think trump won 2020'
(facepalm)

however others wrote
'sign this if you want: a. a committee to recount votes. b. have it done by X date' where that petition was then spammed to the electoral team that deals with it.

so its about being a bit more smart. rather than thinking you can throw an election by just asking for signatures of opinion
as my first posts and the previous post.
petitions work
the boston tea party legal protest was not a citizen placard and picnic their 'protest' was a petition to the british monarchy with a 'resolution'

boston tea party
well history fades and media stories grow.
if you think that the american revolution was caused simply by spilling a few boxes of indian tea off the side of a boat.. then i should laugh.
things that led to the american revolution were far far deeper
such as ... the legal stuff. first congress.. petitioning british monarch
this led to war to sever ties with britain
so in short.. congress petitions war.. not civilians tipping tea boxes into the sea

stamp act riots
well what a coincidence.. the term of a stamp 'being franked' dawning from Ben franklin. .. well in 2012 i was interested in this subject and how US was trying to tax bitcoin.. thus inventively i chose franky1 as my username.. due to the stamp act stuff of franklin in the 1700's..
bitcoin has no representation. so taxation without representation is a big no no
oops i digressed
anyways back on subject
this was not 'riots'.. it was setting up committee's and strengthening US congress
the 13 colonies sent a petition (virginia resolves). which is not the same as protest (placards and picnics)
other things like in england lobbying began to repeal the stamp act due to the negative economic consequences the stamp act was causing.
.. i could go on. but alot of legal things occured. the citizen riots was just social drama

womans sufferage
well media history plays out of placards and picnics. but again lots of things were happening within government buildings.
for instance some women(with businesses) did get to vote and other women lobbied their local government representative to vote on their hehalf (advocate)

.. in short none of the items of question you asked changed due to placards and picnics

Lol you want to petition to ICC or which international body where a country you are in has her own sovereignty? Nobody is going to listen to such petition but to not interfere in a matter not in there jurisdiction.

Ok.... Maybe you want to petition the government where you are trying to break out from? In Africa, such petition will land you inside the jail for either treason or felony for trying to take over the government. Hahaha... Is about struggling for what you want, because nobody will give it to you freely.

There is monopoly everywhere and don't think that every revolution is meant for the betterment of the people. Sometimes the revolutions are started by the government themselves to buy in the time and keep the public thinking that best times are nearby.

What are your thoughts on the Boston Tea party, the Stamp Act Riots or the American Revolution in general?

How about the Womens Suffrage Parade, Stonewall Riots, the 1963 March on Washington?

violent protests and riots by citizens simply results in some citizens earning a criminal record and losing their jobs.. and losing future job prospects
if those out there want to just do peaceful protests. there are better ways to do it.

take this idea for instance
if there was potentially 10k turnout in a city.
dont gather shoulder to shoulder in one location taking up just 1 square block

break up into groups of 200 and scatter. at different intersections.

you can holdup 50 intersections of traffic thats 7 x 7 square blocks

200 is enough to not just have police squads arresting everyone.
50 clusters is enough to keep a whole police district busy and spread out
7x7 blocks disrupted sends a bigger message than a single square block.

but if you wanna do more then just disrupt fellow citizens day getting to work. try the route he elitists use (the petition, legal,lobbying systems)

Eventually, most and many protest often starts peacefully but along the line, some elements of violence is being introduced in order to discredit the protesters and undermine the whole process. This is were protests often fails, when there is an element of violence. So, protesting and protesters don't have to live it at gathering and carry placards alone, they've got to ensure a unified group of persons with a singular idea under a controlled and monitored circumstances.

This is virtually unachievable and its one of the reasons why protest does fail becuase, the government or antiprotesters van always introduce some level of violence through fellow protesters and also, using the armed force to stirr the anger on them and you'll see it manifesting.

This is why most protects fails and most of all  the idea behind every protest is not often defended afterwards.

the philippines leadership did not change due to peaceful protest(placards and picnics)
it was the elections runner up that called foul on the election
which media portray as just
requests peaceful protest/strikes and boycott

the real stuff that happened was
Feb 7th   election result was announced as in 'marcos' favour((third term) illegal)
              runner up 'aquino' called result a fraud
              'marcos' didnt step down pretending his win was legal
feb 15th  proclaimed COMELEC 'marcos' as victor
              runner up 'aquino' proclaimed foul election
              runner up 'aquino' took oath of office at different location at same time as 'marcos'
              requesting boycott/strikes of marcoses banks/services
              50 members of parliament left marcoses government
feb 16th  runner up 'aquino' request boycott/strikes of all 'marcos' publications and media
feb 22nd 2 defense cabinet ministers swapped sides from 'marcos' to 'aquino' side
              cardinel castro's religious condemnation of the election fraud of 'marcos'
              rebels plan to attack 'marcos' palace and capture or kill 'marcos'((coup)planned but didnt happen)

which led to the actual events of marcos then fleeing

so yea it wasnt the citizens waving placards that done it
(i missed out many details of lots of threats and battles.  but you get the jist)
all in all based on law. even though marcos had a name on the vote.. legally he couldnt actually sit as leader as it was 3rd term and not allowed.

why revolutions and movements fail at their desired outcome


Because the opposing revolution/movement is succeeding.

     Indeed, revolution is very overrated. And I agree that the best solution is to really push the people with the same ideals to not aimlessly protest but instead, use the privileges that are present today. Focus on what's significant; appropriate paper work. People should learn more about the laws in their own country and take advantage of the power of law.

     But even so, protests are not to be underestimated because if people really do unite, governments can fall. A good example of this is the edsa people power in the Philippines which has overthrown the abusive president at that time along all the other people under him that did all his bidding. But yes, the best way would be the things you suggested.

No , hardly will government in third world countries listen to placards or your own perception of change as you observe it in your environment. Depending on the kind of change you talk about but change of a structure where political phychopaths feed from is hardly relinquished by mere paper work.

local placards and peaceful protest are the 'relax and wait for' strategy
because placards and peaceful protests are not actually binding politicians to any agreement.

no signature no pledge no commitments occur due to placards/peaceful protests.

but actually being smarter and more organised(strategic plan) work better then organised(membership of community coffee morning group)

You have written so many things. Such a long writing you do  

Alright, from the quote above on your write up , you can understand you are talking on international relation, cooperation of government with other nations which is largely not in the interest of the masses but a self aggradizing purpose, highly selfish too. The government can secretly take up what belongs to the people and sign them off to their foreign cronies but that kind of interaction was not the change your original post talked about.

Your original post was about getting change locally by paper aggrement but such kind of change isn't given on paper but struggle. All society that have been divided didn't do that solely without struggle. At most the struggle can lead into aggrement but to relax and wait for paper agreement, change won't be achieved.

Yes you've made yourself clear and I think you're wrong on the matter
so we disagree and the world turns on... continuing it's revolutions.

and what if i told you . the "establishment" want people to be anti-establishment and not use the establishment, but instead just fight on the streets like rats over rotton pizza, that can be ignored in the legal system

..
i thought i made it obvious by now.
telling people to wear maga hats and rainbow shirts doesnt make physical change movement. it makes a buzzword that sounds like its doing something. but reality is the only movement is arm waving.

selling shirts and hats and bumper stickers is just profit making. and alot of suckers think that handing their money over change things. .. reality is it just makes the buzzword founder richer..


thats what media is saying.
but do you know that africa suffers from (if you read a real brief) things involving contracts.
international investors buying up land from government without the local landowners consent.
yep the land owner just finds out one day their land has been purchased and they have to vacate the land
this has caused 2 things. alot of displacement and battles of farmers remaining trying to hold onto land thats no longer legally theirs.

they can try killing as many international visitors as they like but thats not going to win their land back.
neither is trying criminal acts to get money to try to buy land back. due to AML restrictions
both jsut end up in death or prison

so just screaming shouting killing and fighting and protesting wont solve their problem
70 years of trying and the africans are still displaced and fighting.

when you learn that these legal land purchase agreements have been done. and that unicef/oxfam are just he 'compensation' schemes for the displaced. you start to really see the reality.
yes big-agri buy the land and western citizens end up donating money to pay the african compensation for big-agra's shameful but legal acts

its time to change the tune and realise why after 70 years of protests... protests have not done anything.
and for those things that have changed. look at the real reasons for the change that have been falsely advertised as happening purely due to 'protests'. because the fact is. legal stuff happened behind the scenes. and 'protests' are just the curtain to hide it all behind

so forget the consumerism way. forget the media protest way. look at what actually creates laws. and use them for your advantage.

take UK womans sufferage
media show women waving placards..
but read actual history and you will see that MP's were lobbied to advocate for change. women went to court. and that stuff pushed MP's into voting new acts into established law

I'm believing you are writing on majorly in a sane society. Maybe in a more democratic system and of course not in Africa. A little brief of the African continent would tell you that change doesn't just come by mere contract in a paper. Even in South Africa that seem a more democratic system, change didn't come by mere paper work. Mandela fought for the structural revolution until it came, he stayed in prison for 27 years which was not a little struggle not given in papers.

More recent struggle for change in some Africa society have led to serious wars and blood spilling as we remember the Arab spring cutting across North Africa (Egypt, Tunisia, Libya etc). Mali have now been suspended from African Union recently because of unrest and military coup going on there in the last 9 months succession.

Nigeria currently facing her peculiar challenges from #endsars to high level of kidnapping, insecurity and attacks of government facilities.

Therefore, some societies won't achieve change by paper agreement and in the bible it was said that even doing the time of John the Baptist, the kingdom of God suffer violence and the children of God takes it force.

African government won't yield to peace talks that may be the big challenge bedevilling third world countries.

People don't "fear" the legal route due to fear of money: it's lack of money and disenfranchisement ----why try to work within a system that doesn't seem to be working 'for' you?

****A black person kneeling during a pledge of allegiance that states "Liberty and Justice for all"
I believe in liberty and justice for ALL
I'll do what I can, where I can to the best of my ability to live that value and make it true for my country.

Bitcoin is an excellent example of "people doing what they can where they can"
It's why I learned how to mine and transact with it.

Franky1,
it kinda sounds like you want people to make change "the proper way"----quite establishmentarian of you  


Ya Bumper stickers and symbolism works on us humans...
Someone wearing a red MAGA hat at this point in time tells me everything I need to know about them in one glance.

It's pride month in America and my goodness the movement HAS gone mainstream!!!

This is Target...

My rainbow LOVE is LOVE is LOVE t-shirt expresses one my beliefs quite clearly
I'd love to see this revolution...



Flower Bombs