Topic: Why running NFTs on Bitcoin blockchain is a dumb idea. (Read 456 times)

doomad you have no clue about how things work!!!

you want users of full nodes to have no say in core dev activations
(you love that its no long an opt-in(majority) to activate and instead an abstain=activate model)
you want core to activate anything they like into bitcoin without any scrutiny critique or review outside their team
you think anything that opposes CORES view of bitcoin should be REKT and F**ked off to an altcoin

so how about you stop your totalitarian adoration while pretending im the one ruining things for bitcoin
devs make the code and THEY should be scrutinised and critiqued
not given "god mode"

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now for how to implement a fix that does not involve a roll back..
many ways but here is an easy one

play the same game core does

new consensus rule about treatment of certain tx formats..

tx that use certain opcodes should be limited to how much "weight" their witness allows
EG only say 80 bytes
(after all wasnt TR meant to be the "solution" to weight, where all scripts meant to only be under 80bytes.. well make a rule to enforce that promise)

where the rule starts to be enforced(as thats what consensus rules do) as of block 7XX,000

that way they cant make 300kb+ bloat per output/input after that. thus no longer bloating the blockchain


...
the biggest laugh so far of 2023 has been you pretending I have deprived anyone
funny part is YOU have been the one moderating me out of conversations, trying to get me banned trying to recruit teams of trolls to shut me up. and you are the one that loves how core are depriving users of better utility onchain.

you dont want payments on bitcoin you want bloat.
your mind set is the one depriving more people of things.
you dont want core devs working on scaling bitcoin for tx growth. you want them to be conservative about that and instead promote your subnetwork sham
while telling everyone to just wait a few more years. with your fake promises of dreamy fantasy

i am still laughing now how core have become the totaliratian. even in recent days achow wants to strenthen his moderation powers with a new moderation level of hierarchy on github and other places

your little social club are the ones hitting the ban request buttons. not me

Okay.  That's the wishlist.  Now explain how to implement it without telling people what they can or can't do.

This is the point where you either start telling people what they should or shouldn't be allowed to code, or start trying to decide users' fees for them, when they are currently free to decide that for themselves. 

Because your immediate reaction to every situation is to deprive someone of their freedom in order for you to get what you want.  You're a monster.

my opinion is this
NFT have a purpose. (and feature that is not about memes)

but
NFT hard data(bloat, meta) should not be pushed on the bitcoin blockchain

instead:
simple bitcoin value locks should be used. (no more data than any other utxo)

and that reference is then used for subnetworks to then bloat up on a NFT subnetwork designed to strictly only function with bitcoin pegs. (no bridge to multiple mainnets) thus becomes a sole feature of a bitcoin community-culture (emphasis community/culture, not bitcoin network)

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anyway today there was a block that had only 149 tx(facepalm) but where 10 of them were "ordinals" creating a big 3.8mb block bloat(facepalm) consisting of 10 images of about 350kb each(facepalm)
block:
https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/blocks/btc/775085
tx's:
https://ordinals.com/tx/ [<-add txid(listed below) to end]
1: 614846a46df125e8d5094594a6be1faaff1797161e1fa00a6226f997625f1fe6
2: b476866eebc62de7408b6dcbbeb97120710f8519de8b9d20c7a4b7e189487ae7
3: 9fb2bdb6bf81be94cbb853970a4c0d7cc7824b6184deffa7a444656eb0276ceb
4: 0d50e1cd4ffb55bec386822edf4aa8708ccf5d98cf2d7df268b495650e6076ec
5: 118dbb891a234a389e4dfb4fc45b81401caaf7d271a28037323ec8aa2226dee3
6: a3e432abf6d9fb04016afbed5a34e1e30b1daea5b24329c5508aabbd9bcb99de
7: 3f04548f18ee09ae04c923c1f1f85a560ca783673a3d2b74b83334432e38a2ea
8: c562a90d51ebf31f72872eb8dab3c6a946d4844b30b93e552de93be9a1e1f3d8
9: 60c4fe9830680eb140bdf467e321071d5cd749e3315dd7ebb2671e59df5a4bde
10: caa6a0e3835cf900f0a466f74ada0b26e82742cb59372f9a33d35c33850052e3

to just view the image
https://ordinals.com/content/ [<-add txid(listed above) to end]

We have a saying that a knot that you can open with your hand, you shouldn't open with your teeth.
That's what NFTs are. Everything that can be done a lot better using a lot of other methods is made worse when done through creating a token, specially if it is a silly token on bitcoin blockchain.
You can argue about all the non-meme usages of NFTs but this fact will not change.

369kb wasted (>30% of a block)
(in369kb excess bloat in the 3mb witness area not the base tx 1mb area)
turning a 1.47mb block into a 1.84mb block just for that one spammy frog meme

hope nutildah is proud of herself(sarcasm)

these crappy bloats should just be a bitcoin lock(like standard) and then use that referecne of a utco on a subnetwork and spam the crap in that subnetwork

no one person should deserve to spam the equivalent of a 3rd-5th of a standard block(depending how you measure it)

Network congestion is going to be a problem in the future and as much as I hope that there's a solution hidden in plain sight somewhere, we don't. But that wouldn't stop Ordinals and subsequent NFT projects to want to build their names in the bitcoin blockchain. If anything, they may take it as a challenge to be surpassed even. In any case, we already had NFTs in the bitcoin blockchain since 2014, so I don't see what the point is of these fucking purists who don't want anything to do with NFTs when it's one of the most successful concepts in the industry. As much as Pooya has a point in the fact that artists switching to the NFT industry is more like relinquishing an old slave master for another, you also have a very sound argument on how this can be solved. One thing that he did miss is the fact that the artist has full liberties to embed his piece to the blockchain, via encryption or whichever method they see fit, which provides ownership to that particular buyer. Now on the case of compensation, I don't think artists will be given a doodoohead-useless coin. Most openmarkets nowadays use blue-chip crypto for payments like ethereum or sol, so if's not like these people will be taken advantage.

To add to this, in the current shape of let's say the art and the music industry, the artist gets taken advantage by their labels, on Spotify alone artists aren't even paid more than 50 cent per play on their song. At least when they switch to NFTs, they have full control of how much their pieces are worth, plus they get to bag royalties from resell too which they normally cannot on a conventional label or organization.

NFT went the meme route rather then the clever route.. and failed
ordinals came about where some thought ok maybe something different.. but no.. more meme crap

oh well
seems no one can think outside the utility mindset of twitter/reddit (memes and social drama)

let me guess another 2 years to wasting more time with distractions for sublte delay intention purposes for devs to avoid scaling while they play around with dev politics deciding on allowing memes or not

One of the best ones yet



https://ordinals.com/tx/eeb5baf826a0a093c85f738443aa800a70795c38d8c01768c32f48f06f7893a7

Its the first of a series called Rare Ordinals, was tokenized by its creator on Counterparty.

https://xchain.io/asset/ORDINALPEPE

You can buy a 1 sat fraction of ORDINALPEPE for 1 sat. A fair deal if you ask me.

https://xchain.io/tx/3313dd2de28baac8639a4b3c237b3f8fbe7f83a6c5ec94a256506e9f8637542f

20 purchases so far in the last 24 hours, not too bad. I was 2 of them  



Enjoy!  

here is the thing though.

songs are just data.. encryption is data
you can do alot of great things if you combine both.

im not talking about the lame id3 tags(metadata) appended to the end of a mp3 song that can easily be 'ripped' out. im not talking about standard mp3 (which shows data in different frequencies to play). but instead as encrypted data that converts as it buffers the song as long as the key is presented to the special player

whereby again not as just appended metadata at the end of the file. but within the song itself has a frequency range thats not heard by the human ear but is entangled in the song where other software that hear it then block it out
thus making it easy not just for a song writer.. but also for youtube/skype and such to easily 'hear' copyright songs played in a a youtube video/skype call. and block it out

(ever been on a skype/zoom call where someone is playing loud music but the call software is not letting the person on the other end of the call hear it. )
thats because skype can sense the secret sound that tells skype its a copyright song

also most of the copyright stuff is about where big business tries to play songs for free instead of getting a licence. a music artist is not concerned about street bootleggers. they want to ensure radio stations. and music platforms(spotify, itunes) play and pay fairly as thats where the real money is.
the money is not in chasing every street bootlegger that was a pirate of spotify/youtube. its as just said to go after spotify/youtube

sending out a cease and desist letter. to provide a key to prove (a business) has licence to use the song. or settle for X amount before court. or let it go to court whereby you have electronic proof of abuse

---

all that said
there are other utilities too. take cloud hosting /online virtual lands.
(server renting in the old language)
not only can you leave a server, but also lease a virtual plot of land on a server. where a legit business can render a online store in a 3d world that has rendered 3d products inside the 3d store. where people can see such products where designed just to be used within the 3d word of some game it as a representation of some real world stock that gets sent to real world home location when purchased

..
NFT are not just about memes. there is alot more then can be done with them

Easily doable using bitcoin and a decentralized platform (similar to OpenBazaar that I mentioned earlier) and with no need for a token. People go on the platform, buy the decryption key using bitcoin and receive it to unlock their song.

LOL
There is a massive pirating world going on that trillion dollar industries haven't been able to "sue" to this day with or without evidence.

@Pooya87
thats where meme NFT fail

however.
you have missed or skipped a step, or subtly avoided a step

the usage of web3 and decentralised tech
is that by setting up platforms that require usage of a (decryption)key or permission. then makes that product useful only by the product owner and those he gave permission to

EG encrypting a song.
then hash the encrypted file to have an ID that represents the ownership of file. where the transaction also includes a way to move the de-crypt file key aswell as ownership permissions
use the hash in a NFT platform to trade. whereby. the owner/permissioned user gets the key to unencrypt the file and use the content

where by anyone found with an unencrypted copy of the song, without a key. can be sued. (yep it makes court evidence of IP, copyright fraud easy to judge and prosecute.. so much so it becomes as easy to prosecute/fine a person as "show me a valid parking ticket for the car space we think you didnt pay for, or pay $200 in 14 days")

this step has not been utilised yet.

there are numerous examples of utility.
just utility that should be on subnetworks and platforms. whereby bitcoin network just sticks to payments and not every property licence imaginable on a IP registry

The problem you are describing is about centralized platforms and the companies behind them that are taking advantage to make money. The solution to this is to publish their music on a decentralized platform and cut the middle man as you mentioned in the last line. Something like OpenBazaar.

But using NFT is not doing either of those things! With an NFT the artist is still publishing their music on a centralized platform and only creates a token which they claim is linked to that music! So the middle man is still there, they just add an extra step to make additional money by selling an unrelated and useless token.
In simple terms, the music is not the token. The token is just a hash/script or basically an arbitrary data that can not be used itself. Hence why the token itself is useless.

good example. which is why ether then done coloured coins and nft on subnetworks

That's been my entire adulthood, since well before cryptocurrency was a thing. So my reaction is to not care and continue doing it for myself and the people who do find value in it.

Sometimes it just takes time for them to come around. Nobody recognized the value of the early stuff I did with Bitcoin and Dogecoin. They do now.

I agree with kicking NFTs out, that's what the altcoins are for, go pollute elsewhere and leave Bitcoin for actual transactions. Honestly, it looks like a type of attack. This is going to be abused no doubt.

Energy usage is still a very first world problem, i mean a user might not be directly impacted by it. But the biggest problem is the scaling of the chain. Doing such things will put unnecessary pressure on already a very crowded chain which might become even slower and expensive. Obviously it makes zero sense to bring this NFT shit in bitcoin chain. I remember how bad the Eth chain went during that crypto kitties saga.

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to derail this thread with this debate again. Just a question of mine though: What's your reaction if lots of people you trust don't recognize value in something you do?

1. you dont need to bloat a blockchain with the actual file data.. thats what hashs are for

2. you can create a bitcoin lock. and then referece that as value on a subnetwork(one designed better than some subnetwork designs thus far) and then put all that hash ID+meta data+any dream and fantasy you like on that subnetwork, which has some consensus chain of file hash accountability and verification and also accountability(again unlike some shoddy subnetworks designed today)

3. i know for years dev politics has been that payment transaction data should only consist of the 1mb block 'base'(weight/4 cludge) wall but then have 3mb of space for bloaty scripts and signature mass. but that does not mean its then default acceptable to bloat blocks upto 4mb with the said crap. especially if that 4mb weight rule then depreciates how many payment transactions can then be used in the 1mb base if there were say just 20 meme files of 150kb each

4. the cludgy code of vbyte/weight was meant to be a temporary thing that should have been removed years ago to allow full transaction space of 4m to increase transaction count. it was not to just bloat up blocks with 3mb of crap non payment data

5. idiots that think we should just lay down, go sleep and pretend it didnt happen to then allow 4mb of bloaty non payment data which consist of maybe 20 transactions of some meme. those idiots need to be the ones that go quietly into the night and forget themselves

6. suggesting "it doesnt matter" becasue after downloading people can strip/prune..
well it actually does matter becasue full nodes would need to archive data(in a scenario of foolishly holding full files of memes) to then seed to leacher fool nodes that would then prune/strip at the fool node peer layer group

7. bitcoin should not be letting in bloat of non payment data that is 3x of payment data. if people want bloaty crap. do it on a subnetwork. just make that subnetwork actually function, have a real niche and actual utility (unlike certain subnetworks that failed to met expectations and left us waiting years for progress)

7. bitcoin should not become the bloaty meme file library just to offramp users that want btc payment being told to go elsewhere.. it should be the other way round

They could be used to describe anything of value that somebody doesn't like, but the facts remain that they are applied to Bitcoin by its critics on a daily basis and the thing of value continues to possess value regardless of your personal opinion of it.

But, NFTs don't replace intermediaries. Music artists can upload their songs as NFTs, but they need a platform to have them available for the audience. Be it Spotify, YouTube, iTunes, Opensea. They will all take a commission along the way. The solution to this problem isn't NFTs, but more competitive platforms, which will be in favor of the artists.

I don't know for sure, I make a guess. Either way, I don't know their good better than they themselves.

Yes, I'm the president of Greece, and millions from our government spending goes straight to NFT shilling. You got me.

Those rather sound counter-arguments for shitcoining.