Topic: why super rich pay no tax but suggest giving all their wealth away (eventually) - page 2. (Read 390 times)
October 30, 2023, 06:52:44 AM
That’s interesting practical approach. Buying new real estates by loaning the previous estates creates perfect investment circle. Here banks are making you rich by using their own money. All the riches are just making OCR (Own Contribution) during loan process where according to type of real estates and type of loan they are accruing. It could be 10% or max 20% according to the country where you reside or the structure they have. It makes sense all they have to invest is that much OCR and nothing more. They run the business as usual they earn many fold in the revenue and only end up paying small portion on their loan EMI. They also avail tax benefits under expenses section during tax filing. It’s like they are have discounted property and investments from all the sides. The more they invest the more they benefit in tax. I am think it’s not only about rich peeps but also common peeps however they should learn how this works through their Chartered accountant who exactly knows what can be saved where.
October 29, 2023, 12:51:11 PM
There are a couple of things you are missing, first is that they are not "super fiat rich" they have a high networth. As you said it, they don't bag hold fiat, they invest it.
But the more important thing you are missing is the fact that these super rich minority are playing the system and have already changed the laws to have these types of backdoors to help them evade being taxed. It wasn't always like this, they basically infiltrated the governments specially in places like US (mostly from Reagan time) and made all the changes to benefit themselves.
It can not happen in bitcoin world because bitcoiners don't have nearly the same "infiltration powers" and governments who want to tax them will find a way to shut any way you think you could use to evade their taxation...
But the more important thing you are missing is the fact that these super rich minority are playing the system and have already changed the laws to have these types of backdoors to help them evade being taxed. It wasn't always like this, they basically infiltrated the governments specially in places like US (mostly from Reagan time) and made all the changes to benefit themselves.
It can not happen in bitcoin world because bitcoiners don't have nearly the same "infiltration powers" and governments who want to tax them will find a way to shut any way you think you could use to evade their taxation...
i totally agree the term super rich has nothing at all to do with real cash-in-hand statistic
anyways
we bitcoiners do not need to change the laws.. we just have to LEARN the laws to realise the same fiat backdoors apply
education is the problem. most people do not know how to function at the same level as the wallstreet guys.. we as bitcoiners actually have more of an advantage because bitcoin doesnt has as many laws attached
i was recently debating people who were crying that their (affiliated business) mixers were soon to need to be licenced money service businesses..
i was trying to tell them instead of crying that their favourite money service business requires licencing now(being recognised for what it is).. they should be smarter and read the laws to find the backdoors. and learn how fiat businesses operate, to learn how to create a service that sidesteps the regulations
EG imagine if a passenger transport startup just cried about taxi cab licences and regulations.. uber would not operate.. but uber learned the law and offered a service that was not described as a taxi service thus doesnt need to comply to taxi-cab law
its education. learn how others do things. and apply them to how to operate bitcoin services.
So franky1 has now realised a strategy that Saylor has made popular ad nauseam, and people are wondering how to get those bitcon loans when all you have to do is search the internet:
i was the one telling people about the reasons he done things ages ago while it was happening.. but still later on people are not learning/using these tricks.. and yea it is ad nauseam
i see people in 2023 saying about how they "need" to use a centralised exchange with KYC to convert to fiat and then be taxed.
we need a better education program and better services that dont "need" to operate in this manner
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October 29, 2023, 08:37:37 AM
So franky1 has now realised a strategy that Saylor has made popular ad nauseam, and people are wondering how to get those bitcon loans when all you have to do is search the internet:
https://tokentax.co/blog/best-crypto-loans
I remember that one of the big ones that went bankrupt not long ago also offered this type of service, such as Celsius.
I only see sense in it if you are going to use a small part of your holdings, as you lose the power of control with your private keys. That is, if you have 20 bitcoins and you are only going to use 1 to borrow against it, fine. But if you have only 1 or 2 you can end up broke.
https://tokentax.co/blog/best-crypto-loans
I remember that one of the big ones that went bankrupt not long ago also offered this type of service, such as Celsius.
I only see sense in it if you are going to use a small part of your holdings, as you lose the power of control with your private keys. That is, if you have 20 bitcoins and you are only going to use 1 to borrow against it, fine. But if you have only 1 or 2 you can end up broke.
October 29, 2023, 07:31:03 AM
Quote
so here is a tip for us bitcoiners who ask how can governments try to tax bitcoin but yet, fiat billlionaires dont get taxed
there needs to be a bitcoin service where people who want to buy bitcoin join(lets call it a credit union or loan company). but instead of "buying" they become investors/funders of loans.
so the service offers loans to bitcoiners that want to cash out. but the bitcoiner doesnt sell the coin. but instead hands the coin over to the service as collateral.
the bitcoiner is then a non-coiner and receives cash. but has not sold the coin but instead received a 'loan' of cash for his collateral. thus no tax. yep loans are not taxable.
obviously never making any repayments the coins become the service investors property. and the deal is done.
buyers have the coin. the ex-bitcoiner gets the cash.
there needs to be a bitcoin service where people who want to buy bitcoin join(lets call it a credit union or loan company). but instead of "buying" they become investors/funders of loans.
so the service offers loans to bitcoiners that want to cash out. but the bitcoiner doesnt sell the coin. but instead hands the coin over to the service as collateral.
the bitcoiner is then a non-coiner and receives cash. but has not sold the coin but instead received a 'loan' of cash for his collateral. thus no tax. yep loans are not taxable.
obviously never making any repayments the coins become the service investors property. and the deal is done.
buyers have the coin. the ex-bitcoiner gets the cash.
There was a crypto website offering similar service. The name of the website was xCoins.io(if I remember it correctly).
The BTC seller sells his BTC and receives Paypal payment, which in the payment info is described as a loan repayment.
The website had a negative reputation due to multiple scam attempts and it's currently shut down.
There are countries with a 0% capital gains tax, so the Bitcoiners can sell their BTC without being taxed. My country is one of those.
There will always be loopholes in the various national tax systems and there will always be rich people trying to take advantage of those loopholes.
October 29, 2023, 06:27:39 AM
I also know about super rich farmers in our area that are buying farms around them with loans to reduce the taxes that they are paying at the end of the tax term. They buy huge tractors and vehicles for the farms and hire more employees, to show expenses that can be deducted from their income and expense sheet for tax purposes.
They openly brag about this... because they know it is a legal loophole in the tax system, so they misuse that loophole to avoid paying a lot of money for taxes. Also.... Capital gains only come into affect, when the asset or property are sold.... and this seldom happens. (they just acquire more land and that land generate wealth)
They openly brag about this... because they know it is a legal loophole in the tax system, so they misuse that loophole to avoid paying a lot of money for taxes. Also.... Capital gains only come into affect, when the asset or property are sold.... and this seldom happens. (they just acquire more land and that land generate wealth)
October 29, 2023, 03:03:20 AM
after another discussion with someone when a topic came up about the super fiat rich
how do they get away with paying no taxes, but then suggest they will eventually give all their wealth away
the simple answer is this
when their business gets revenue, they invest it. and because they are not spending the money personally outside of business purposes, and because they are not selling the investment there is no tax. (investing is a pre-tax event)
then if they need some spending money, they do not sell the investment. instead they ask for a loan using the investment as collateral. and because funds from a loan are not taxable they get to use the money without paying tax
so here is a tip for us bitcoiners who ask how can governments try to tax bitcoin but yet, fiat billlionaires dont get taxed
there needs to be a bitcoin service where people who want to buy bitcoin join(lets call it a credit union or loan company). but instead of "buying" they become investors/funders of loans.
so the service offers loans to bitcoiners that want to cash out. but the bitcoiner doesnt sell the coin. but instead hands the coin over to the service as collateral.
the bitcoiner is then a non-coiner and receives cash. but has not sold the coin but instead received a 'loan' of cash for his collateral. thus no tax. yep loans are not taxable.
obviously never making any repayments the coins become the service investors property. and the deal is done.
buyers have the coin. the ex-bitcoiner gets the cash.
.. sidenote
the only time the rich sell assets is if the asset is performing below its purchase price. so they sell it. and instantly buy it back. (no loss due to sell-buy being equal price/time) but it triggers a "realised value loss" they can put on their financial statement, which they can then use the loss against any tax their main fiat business could not avoid within the business.. to not have to pay tax because the asset loss writes off any fiat business tax
how do they get away with paying no taxes, but then suggest they will eventually give all their wealth away
the simple answer is this
when their business gets revenue, they invest it. and because they are not spending the money personally outside of business purposes, and because they are not selling the investment there is no tax. (investing is a pre-tax event)
then if they need some spending money, they do not sell the investment. instead they ask for a loan using the investment as collateral. and because funds from a loan are not taxable they get to use the money without paying tax
so here is a tip for us bitcoiners who ask how can governments try to tax bitcoin but yet, fiat billlionaires dont get taxed
there needs to be a bitcoin service where people who want to buy bitcoin join(lets call it a credit union or loan company). but instead of "buying" they become investors/funders of loans.
so the service offers loans to bitcoiners that want to cash out. but the bitcoiner doesnt sell the coin. but instead hands the coin over to the service as collateral.
the bitcoiner is then a non-coiner and receives cash. but has not sold the coin but instead received a 'loan' of cash for his collateral. thus no tax. yep loans are not taxable.
obviously never making any repayments the coins become the service investors property. and the deal is done.
buyers have the coin. the ex-bitcoiner gets the cash.
.. sidenote
the only time the rich sell assets is if the asset is performing below its purchase price. so they sell it. and instantly buy it back. (no loss due to sell-buy being equal price/time) but it triggers a "realised value loss" they can put on their financial statement, which they can then use the loss against any tax their main fiat business could not avoid within the business.. to not have to pay tax because the asset loss writes off any fiat business tax
At the highest levels, the super rich are in a constant game throughout their lives to try to get to the very top - there's no way you end up acquiring so much money in your life time that you don't feel you're in a competition and want to make it to the #1 spot of richest in the world, however difficult that may be. That's why we see most billionaires holding on to their vast mountains of wealth until they die aged 80+. They could really be putting it to much better use throughout their lifetimes, but choose to accumulate until the end. It's a fault of all the governments around the world letting them get away with it really, as they should be taxed a lot more but they effectively become financial nomads because they can.
October 29, 2023, 02:27:11 AM
Oh yeah, I've watched videos about this scheme with investing money and then taking loans to avoid paying taxes. To be honest, I think it's a practice that should be condemned if not somehow made illegal because being rich and doing things like avoiding giving your fair share back to your country is disgusting behaviour.
So, because of that, I have mixed feelings about an idea of doing the same thing to avoid paying taxes with Bitcoin, although I'm sure some people will appreciate the idea, and, in general, it's a pretty good idea for the US (because taxes work differently in different countries).
So, because of that, I have mixed feelings about an idea of doing the same thing to avoid paying taxes with Bitcoin, although I'm sure some people will appreciate the idea, and, in general, it's a pretty good idea for the US (because taxes work differently in different countries).
It could be a good idea for country like US which has strict and unfair taxation. In other countries where the taxation is fair, there's no need trying to strategically avoid taxes like the wealthy men do. If this method is adopted by bitcoiners, the government who is already not in love with bitcoin will increase their tempo of fight against bitcoin.
They already see bitcoin and some other altcoins as means of evading tax. This therefore mean that there will be overnight introduction of laws to stop bitcoin tax evaders using loan.
October 29, 2023, 01:19:05 AM
I know liabilities like these are good for a business to give the impression of a healthy financial standing, but doesn't servicing a loan mean it's cutting through the companies profits ??
Btw not only can the super rich avoid paying taxes, Businesses have always found legal ways of avoiding paying taxes and this is done by most companies as far as am concerned , but what's interesting about this is that does this mean these guys don't plan on paying back the loan after such a transaction? And isn't it easy for Capital gains to be applied here with or without the losses as they can be deducted in case losses are recorded..
Btw not only can the super rich avoid paying taxes, Businesses have always found legal ways of avoiding paying taxes and this is done by most companies as far as am concerned , but what's interesting about this is that does this mean these guys don't plan on paying back the loan after such a transaction? And isn't it easy for Capital gains to be applied here with or without the losses as they can be deducted in case losses are recorded..
October 28, 2023, 11:12:39 PM
...
I always find it to be an eye opener, seriously it is, isn't it some kind of shocking LIFE HACK or some voodoo magic, defying the gravitation! And start to wonder how can this be even allowed, btw, you can't beat born rich, and born provider hunter no matter how you gonna do, you would likely bend over to begin to see what they do next and do exactly what they do just like the cult, when they move into the next hype you too have to quickly adopt, find a fat and big paypig and cling on it firmly and lock up the target only to you the whole damn life, such is a life of being passive and totally living a life of no self-worth, no hobby no passion no goal not even contribute no consistency like the empty shell, crave other people opinions and reviews on you madly, but mindlessly chasing the next shinny trend because you eagerly find passive gain from it such as view count and emotionally supporting your cause. Easily get trigger by a little rejection and quickly accuse and sue them for defamation. What is it, does it sound exactly like a person would behave to a certain expectation/pattern but they can't help themselve but wandering in the same circle over and over again, like a rat race.... it's a practice that should be condemned if not somehow made illegal...
What they did is nothing less than looking for provider in life to be their paypig, just like what a certain gender did, you said to make it illegal? That is gonna be very challenging to impose such restrictions, first you would have to tell those provider hunters to stop leeching money and get to work... haha! October 28, 2023, 02:40:19 PM
Oh yeah, I've watched videos about this scheme with investing money and then taking loans to avoid paying taxes. To be honest, I think it's a practice that should be condemned if not somehow made illegal because being rich and doing things like avoiding giving your fair share back to your country is disgusting behaviour.
I don't think they should be condemned for doing so, I do believe they are using the system against the one who made the system. We know for a fact that being rich is paying a huge amount of taxes, therefore they are trying to avoid it by using some legal ways just like what the OP indicated from his post. Taking a loan to invest is not taxable, that's true, this is why most of rich or wealthy people spend like crazy using credits giving collaterals from their assets, and it is because the interest rate is much smaller than the tax they need to pay when they spend money from their gains.So, because of that, I have mixed feelings about an idea of doing the same thing to avoid paying taxes with Bitcoin, although I'm sure some people will appreciate the idea, and, in general, it's a pretty good idea for the US (because taxes work differently in different countries).
Totally different with bitcoin, because of decentralization government failed to tax people who makes profit for it. 
October 28, 2023, 02:31:18 PM
-snip-
Because they have assets to use as a collateral and lenders trust that they can repay the loan with high interest whereas average Joe cannot. The law is for average people when wealthy people always find a way to evade them.
The level of risk offered by either banks or other lending services is usually commensurate with the entire loan amount and is still below the level of tax liability, so for the average Joe the interest rate is not much different.Because they have assets to use as a collateral and lenders trust that they can repay the loan with high interest whereas average Joe cannot. The law is for average people when wealthy people always find a way to evade them.
If they want to take this step to avoid taxes like the rich, they can do that too although having to set up their "collateral" is a bit time consuming at first.
October 28, 2023, 02:12:32 PM
Thanks for bringing this information in front of us. The main reason behind not giving any shit to tax for the poor might be that they are dealing in a lesser amount, and the tax is also lesser. And why give the rich so much thought to tax? Because they will be charged more in tax if they are dealing more. This only happens if the tax is progressive in that country or region.
Otherwise, the poor would also give more importance to taxes, but they pay less, so they care less. In countries where there is no progressive tax system, the poor are becoming poorer and the rich are becoming richer. Because the poor make choices that are risk-free, they do not take risks to do something out of their league, and they always end up in poverty.
Many poor people tried their luck or their skills to take themselves out of poverty, and many have been successful, but the main reason is not some tax, it's the efforts that one person is making. If a poor person is making efforts, he will be successful, and the second thing that makes the poor poorer and the rich richer is the opportunity on the basis of background.
If, in the first example, a poor person is making efforts in the compete with some rich people, then the chances of losing are higher for the poor.
Otherwise, the poor would also give more importance to taxes, but they pay less, so they care less. In countries where there is no progressive tax system, the poor are becoming poorer and the rich are becoming richer. Because the poor make choices that are risk-free, they do not take risks to do something out of their league, and they always end up in poverty.
Many poor people tried their luck or their skills to take themselves out of poverty, and many have been successful, but the main reason is not some tax, it's the efforts that one person is making. If a poor person is making efforts, he will be successful, and the second thing that makes the poor poorer and the rich richer is the opportunity on the basis of background.
If, in the first example, a poor person is making efforts in the compete with some rich people, then the chances of losing are higher for the poor.
October 28, 2023, 02:03:34 PM
I already knew a few of these legal loopholes that rich people uses but got a clear picture of the overall scenario and how they do it. It is not rocket science but why only rich people can use this method? Because they have assets to use as a collateral and lenders trust that they can repay the loan with high interest whereas average Joe cannot. The law is for average people when wealthy people always find a way to evade them.
October 28, 2023, 01:10:03 PM
This is what exactly Robert Kiyosaki's was saying.
I don't understand with a part why you're not get taxed when you gets revenue? you gets taxed because you're make profit (revenue > expense), loan/debt is a liability, not an expense.
I think you forget to mention interest since taking out a loan has always an interest rate you'd need to pay. But interest rate is still lower than tax, much much lower for someone who make big amount of money.
That is actually an awesome idea, but I would have been more amazed if I had read this post yesterday because my professor of HRM taught us about this tip of tax yesterday, he used the example of factories (production units) where the tax experts have to come up with ways, where they have to reduce the tax and this method of taking a huge loan to reduce or eliminate the tax partially or fully. I thought at that moment that, why pay interest (because in our religion it's haram) so I thought if I had to choose between them I would choose to pay tax rather then take a loan on which I have to pay interest.I don't understand with a part why you're not get taxed when you gets revenue? you gets taxed because you're make profit (revenue > expense), loan/debt is a liability, not an expense.
I think you forget to mention interest since taking out a loan has always an interest rate you'd need to pay. But interest rate is still lower than tax, much much lower for someone who make big amount of money.
Overall, maybe the government increase taxes and do not ban this policy of no tax on loan money at the same time, because they know in both ways money is coming to them but there must be some trick in it (some point) that we are missing because governments and banks do not make deal where they are making loss (lesser profit is also a loss to them).
Thanks for the video I will share it with my class group.
October 28, 2023, 11:46:48 AM
Oh yeah, I've watched videos about this scheme with investing money and then taking loans to avoid paying taxes. To be honest, I think it's a practice that should be condemned if not somehow made illegal because being rich and doing things like avoiding giving your fair share back to your country is disgusting behaviour.
So, because of that, I have mixed feelings about an idea of doing the same thing to avoid paying taxes with Bitcoin, although I'm sure some people will appreciate the idea, and, in general, it's a pretty good idea for the US (because taxes work differently in different countries).
So, because of that, I have mixed feelings about an idea of doing the same thing to avoid paying taxes with Bitcoin, although I'm sure some people will appreciate the idea, and, in general, it's a pretty good idea for the US (because taxes work differently in different countries).
October 28, 2023, 11:00:24 AM
Trump is openly saying this system is rigged. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OjLSTv2hVtE
Debts are not taxable. And all of these rich men are using this same system to get away with it. But those in the low class who don't have any collateral to throw still have to pay a huge percentage for the tax.
Those rich men didn't feel like it was their responsibility to pay taxes. Could it be justified to also not pay tax because we are using BTC?
October 28, 2023, 10:48:39 AM
There are a couple of things you are missing, first is that they are not "super fiat rich" they have a high networth. As you said it, they don't bag hold fiat, they invest it.
But the more important thing you are missing is the fact that these super rich minority are playing the system and have already changed the laws to have these types of backdoors to help them evade being taxed. It wasn't always like this, they basically infiltrated the governments specially in places like US (mostly from Reagan time) and made all the changes to benefit themselves.
It can not happen in bitcoin world because bitcoiners don't have nearly the same "infiltration powers" and governments who want to tax them will find a way to shut any way you think you could use to evade their taxation...
But the more important thing you are missing is the fact that these super rich minority are playing the system and have already changed the laws to have these types of backdoors to help them evade being taxed. It wasn't always like this, they basically infiltrated the governments specially in places like US (mostly from Reagan time) and made all the changes to benefit themselves.
It can not happen in bitcoin world because bitcoiners don't have nearly the same "infiltration powers" and governments who want to tax them will find a way to shut any way you think you could use to evade their taxation...
October 28, 2023, 10:20:59 AM
This is what exactly Robert Kiyosaki's was saying.
I don't understand with a part why you're not get taxed when you gets revenue? you gets taxed because you're make profit (revenue > expense), loan/debt is a liability, not an expense.
I think you forget to mention interest since taking out a loan has always an interest rate you'd need to pay. But interest rate is still lower than tax, much much lower for someone who make big amount of money.
I don't understand with a part why you're not get taxed when you gets revenue? you gets taxed because you're make profit (revenue > expense), loan/debt is a liability, not an expense.
I think you forget to mention interest since taking out a loan has always an interest rate you'd need to pay. But interest rate is still lower than tax, much much lower for someone who make big amount of money.
a. you dont declare tax each day you receive income from customers. you file your taxes at the end of year of what is left after to separate out your deductibles.. its the same as the common man, before tax they can invest part/all of their salary into a pension or a tax free investment and such. so the amount of money going into an investment is not post-tax, nor taxed at source.
b.you forgot all about the loan service i mentioned.. the point of a service is not for the loan receiver to make repayments that include interest. the point is for the loan receiver to give collateral to get the cash and then ..hint hint. default the loan so the service takes the collateral. that way instead of selling coin to then be taxed on normal CEX. you have instead been given cash equivalent in loan form, thus no tax. and surrendered your coin... (hint hint its a tactic to sell coin get fiat without selling and being taxed)
and thats how the rich never pay tax, but get to handle alot of money
October 28, 2023, 10:17:25 AM
OP, I read a book ===> "Why We Want You To Be Rich - Two Men One Message" written by Donald Trump and Robert Kiyosaki... where they explain something interesting.
They say, they want more people to be rich, because if more people are rich.. then they pay less taxes. They do not want a small group of super rich people paying 90%+ of the taxes..... they want a good middle class and a large group of rich people that can help them to pay the taxes.
They say, they want more people to be rich, because if more people are rich.. then they pay less taxes. They do not want a small group of super rich people paying 90%+ of the taxes..... they want a good middle class and a large group of rich people that can help them to pay the taxes.
October 28, 2023, 10:09:26 AM
This is what exactly Robert Kiyosaki's was saying.
I don't understand with a part why you're not get taxed when you gets revenue? you gets taxed because you're make profit (revenue > expense), loan/debt is a liability, not an expense.
I think you forget to mention interest since taking out a loan has always an interest rate you'd need to pay. But interest rate is still lower than tax, much much lower for someone who make big amount of money.
I don't understand with a part why you're not get taxed when you gets revenue? you gets taxed because you're make profit (revenue > expense), loan/debt is a liability, not an expense.
I think you forget to mention interest since taking out a loan has always an interest rate you'd need to pay. But interest rate is still lower than tax, much much lower for someone who make big amount of money.
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