Why the big whales are not cashing out? - page 2.

tee-rex

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Quote from: tabnloz on December 29, 2016, 04:22:33 AM

Quote from: tee-rex on December 29, 2016, 03:57:26 AM

Quote from: mastica on December 28, 2016, 03:04:23 PM

I do believe those whales of bitcoin are investing into some altcoins at the moment, since the most great altcoins are getting a lower value as the price of bitcoin keeps growing, one of them it eth, it had lost 200-400k value on the last days, soo im pretty sure a pump at some good altcoins will happen soon, as the bitcoin value should drop once again, and if not people will pump the altcoins as always they do.

If you ask me, this is unlikely. Really, if they don't cash out when Bitcoin price is over 900 dollars per coin and don't want fiat, why would they want some junk altcoins? It seems to be a common opinion that cryptowhales hold their bitcoins waiting to become super rich in the future, and they have already written fiat money off in their mind, so would they even think about alts in that case?

the whale traders (not holders) will ride btc up and at some stage put aportion into alts. if alts go on a tear the returns go 10 - 100x - see litecoins $2 - $50 or ETH before the DAO.

You talk about whales, though you actually mean some small traders with a few bitcoins at most. Whales hold thousands of bitcoins, and investing in altcoins big time involves an insane amount of risk for them and their finances, while investing small is simply not worth their time. If they can steadily and safely make a percentage or two with Bitcoin, as you seem to assume, it doesn't look very plausible they will be interested in anything else.

tabnloz

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Quote from: tee-rex on December 29, 2016, 03:57:26 AM

Quote from: mastica on December 28, 2016, 03:04:23 PM

I do believe those whales of bitcoin are investing into some altcoins at the moment, since the most great altcoins are getting a lower value as the price of bitcoin keeps growing, one of them it eth, it had lost 200-400k value on the last days, soo im pretty sure a pump at some good altcoins will happen soon, as the bitcoin value should drop once again, and if not people will pump the altcoins as always they do.

If you ask me, this is unlikely. Really, if they don't cash out when Bitcoin price is over 900 dollars per coin and don't want fiat, why would they want some junk altcoins? It seems to be a common opinion that cryptowhales hold their bitcoins waiting to become super rich in the future, and they have already written fiat money off in their mind, so would they even think about alts in that case?

the whale traders (not holders) will ride btc up and at some stage put aportion into alts. if alts go on a tear the returns go 10 - 100x - see litecoins $2 - $50 or ETH before the DAO.

tee-rex

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Quote from: mastica on December 28, 2016, 03:04:23 PM

I do believe those whales of bitcoin are investing into some altcoins at the moment, since the most great altcoins are getting a lower value as the price of bitcoin keeps growing, one of them it eth, it had lost 200-400k value on the last days, soo im pretty sure a pump at some good altcoins will happen soon, as the bitcoin value should drop once again, and if not people will pump the altcoins as always they do.

If you ask me, this is unlikely. Really, if they don't cash out when Bitcoin price is over 900 dollars per coin and don't want fiat, why would they want some junk altcoins? It seems to be a common opinion that cryptowhales hold their bitcoins waiting to become super rich in the future, and they have already written fiat money off in their mind, so would they even think about alts in that case?

Positid

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Quote from: South Park on December 28, 2016, 04:07:30 PM

Quote from: tee-rex on December 08, 2016, 03:53:01 AM

That question has always been intriguing me. Reading about possible control over Bitcoin by the government, I thought about the ways how they could actually do it. One idea that came to my mind was to print enough fiat to buy all bitcoins existing and get done with it for good. But then I recalled about the top Bitcoin holders including Satoshi himself keeping their coins, and it struck me that they might not be selling their stashes just because of this, for the fear that government could easily buy up all bitcoins that are traded and turn into the biggest whale itself.

How likely is that?

Printing that amount of money will create inflation which will increase the price of bitcoin and if some entity a bank or government began buying bitcoin like crazy then the price will become even higher, smaller holders may sell their coins but the ones holding huge stashes may decide to hold since they will understand what is happening.

If time will come that banks will hold bitcoins then it's a positive signal for us to follow them as well. They see great success for bitcoin and that gives us confidence to follow their actions.

South Park

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Quote from: tee-rex on December 08, 2016, 03:53:01 AM

That question has always been intriguing me. Reading about possible control over Bitcoin by the government, I thought about the ways how they could actually do it. One idea that came to my mind was to print enough fiat to buy all bitcoins existing and get done with it for good. But then I recalled about the top Bitcoin holders including Satoshi himself keeping their coins, and it struck me that they might not be selling their stashes just because of this, for the fear that government could easily buy up all bitcoins that are traded and turn into the biggest whale itself.

How likely is that?

Printing that amount of money will create inflation which will increase the price of bitcoin and if some entity a bank or government began buying bitcoin like crazy then the price will become even higher, smaller holders may sell their coins but the ones holding huge stashes may decide to hold since they will understand what is happening.

mastica

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I do believe those whales of bitcoin are investing into some altcoins at the moment, since the most great altcoins are getting a lower value as the price of bitcoin keeps growing, one of them it eth, it had lost 200-400k value on the last days, soo im pretty sure a pump at some good altcoins will happen soon, as the bitcoin value should drop once again, and if not people will pump the altcoins as always they do.

angaper

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Quote from: SvenBomvolen on December 28, 2016, 10:41:44 AM

Quote from: razoor on December 28, 2016, 10:36:17 AM

As was stated above, the most obvious answer is because they think it'll go higher but more generally they believe it can provide them something. It can be eliminating fees, hiding money, increase in the wealth...

Therefore bitcoin is universal tool, and we can use bitcoin for different purposes. I also hold my bitcoins, many of us think it will rise, its just a question how much. Big whales are holders, they have bitcoins for trading, cashing out, but most of the coins will sit and wait couple thousand dollars mark, like I wait that just with my little amount.
Sometimes most obvious answer is the right answer, there is no conspiracy theory behind every story.

In these moments when the economic possibilities of bitcoin are becoming a reality, even the big speculators must be very cautious when making a move that could potentially ruin everything. I trust that even the big whales can sometimes be wise in making decisions about their investments.

SvenBomvolen

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Quote from: razoor on December 28, 2016, 10:36:17 AM

As was stated above, the most obvious answer is because they think it'll go higher but more generally they believe it can provide them something. It can be eliminating fees, hiding money, increase in the wealth...

Therefore bitcoin is universal tool, and we can use bitcoin for different purposes. I also hold my bitcoins, many of us think it will rise, its just a question how much. Big whales are holders, they have bitcoins for trading, cashing out, but most of the coins will sit and wait couple thousand dollars mark, like I wait that just with my little amount.
Sometimes most obvious answer is the right answer, there is no conspiracy theory behind every story.

razoor

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As was stated above, the most obvious answer is because they think it'll go higher but more generally they believe it can provide them something. It can be eliminating fees, hiding money, increase in the wealth...

Sithara007

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Quote from: panju1 on December 27, 2016, 11:18:37 AM

Bitcoin is definitely not a tool for tax evasion.

Bitcoin can be used as a tool for hiding your wealth, there by evading income tax. I don't know how many people are using Bitcoins for such a purpose, but saying that it is not a tool for tax evasion is plain wrong.

tee-rex

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Quote from: Mallyx on December 28, 2016, 04:55:03 AM

Quote from: tee-rex on December 28, 2016, 04:46:27 AM

Quote from: panju1 on December 27, 2016, 11:18:37 AM

Quote from: azguard on December 27, 2016, 04:00:59 AM

Every government monitor any transaction that is off the limit, is it bitcoin gold silver oil or something else, example is friend of mine he withdrawal more then 80K euros in bitcoin in two days they come to collect 35K tax for additional income, no matter if our government dont accept bitcoin as payment he got tax. But most whales that have been from start are on the big income from beginning they want to have more and more and for every day they have. Image the ones from start when price was nothing imagine how much they have now

Bitcoin is definitely not a tool for tax evasion. If caught, you get the same punishment as all tax cheats.
One reason for whales not cashing out could be that they are looking for favourable capital gains treatment or are just waiting for losses in other parts of their portfolio to offset these gains. Grin

This may be a good reason why big whales are not cashing out after all. Correct me I'm wrong on this, but in the US Bitcoin was legally considered as a property or commodity last time I checked, and there seems to be a specific term, maybe 1 to 3 years of possession, after which the capital gains are not taxable. Could anyone specify the exact terms for tax exemptions in this case?

Terms for taxation aren't the same in every country, when you cashout you have to be careful on where you do it. If you're from the EU, you can open a bank account in any EU country.

I believe an US citizen can open a bank account in an other country which is more favorable (this is exactly what do the rich to stay rich)

In the Eurozone Bitcoin is not taxable because it is like a foreign currency, and the income obtained from currency conversion operations is not taxable there. I may be wrong on this, but that's what I heard from people here. In any case, even if Bitcoin is not a tool for tax evasion, many users are not going to pay any taxes for the profits they have earned with Bitcoin.

Mallyx

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Quote from: tee-rex on December 28, 2016, 04:46:27 AM

Quote from: panju1 on December 27, 2016, 11:18:37 AM

Quote from: azguard on December 27, 2016, 04:00:59 AM

Every government monitor any transaction that is off the limit, is it bitcoin gold silver oil or something else, example is friend of mine he withdrawal more then 80K euros in bitcoin in two days they come to collect 35K tax for additional income, no matter if our government dont accept bitcoin as payment he got tax. But most whales that have been from start are on the big income from beginning they want to have more and more and for every day they have. Image the ones from start when price was nothing imagine how much they have now

Bitcoin is definitely not a tool for tax evasion. If caught, you get the same punishment as all tax cheats.
One reason for whales not cashing out could be that they are looking for favourable capital gains treatment or are just waiting for losses in other parts of their portfolio to offset these gains. Grin

This may be a good reason why big whales are not cashing out after all. Correct me I'm wrong on this, but in the US Bitcoin was legally considered as a property or commodity last time I checked, and there seems to be a specific term, maybe 1 to 3 years of possession, after which the capital gains are not taxable. Could anyone specify the exact terms for tax exemptions in this case?

Terms for taxation aren't the same in every country, when you cashout you have to be careful on where you do it. If you're from the EU, you can open a bank account in any EU country.

I believe an US citizen can open a bank account in an other country which is more favorable (this is exactly what do the rich to stay rich)

tee-rex

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Quote from: panju1 on December 27, 2016, 11:18:37 AM

Quote from: azguard on December 27, 2016, 04:00:59 AM

Every government monitor any transaction that is off the limit, is it bitcoin gold silver oil or something else, example is friend of mine he withdrawal more then 80K euros in bitcoin in two days they come to collect 35K tax for additional income, no matter if our government dont accept bitcoin as payment he got tax. But most whales that have been from start are on the big income from beginning they want to have more and more and for every day they have. Image the ones from start when price was nothing imagine how much they have now

Bitcoin is definitely not a tool for tax evasion. If caught, you get the same punishment as all tax cheats.
One reason for whales not cashing out could be that they are looking for favourable capital gains treatment or are just waiting for losses in other parts of their portfolio to offset these gains. Grin

This may be a good reason why big whales are not cashing out after all. Correct me I'm wrong on this, but in the US Bitcoin was legally considered as a property or commodity last time I checked, and there seems to be a specific term, maybe 1 to 3 years of possession, after which the capital gains are not taxable. Could anyone specify the exact terms for tax exemptions in this case?

panju1

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Quote from: azguard on December 27, 2016, 04:00:59 AM

Every government monitor any transaction that is off the limit, is it bitcoin gold silver oil or something else, example is friend of mine he withdrawal more then 80K euros in bitcoin in two days they come to collect 35K tax for additional income, no matter if our government dont accept bitcoin as payment he got tax. But most whales that have been from start are on the big income from beginning they want to have more and more and for every day they have. Image the ones from start when price was nothing imagine how much they have now

Bitcoin is definitely not a tool for tax evasion. If caught, you get the same punishment as all tax cheats.
One reason for whales not cashing out could be that they are looking for favourable capital gains treatment or are just waiting for losses in other parts of their portfolio to offset these gains. Grin

tunctioncloud

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Quote from: tee-rex on December 27, 2016, 04:01:50 AM

Quote from: tabnloz on December 27, 2016, 01:17:54 AM

Quote from: freebutcaged on December 27, 2016, 12:40:48 AM

Quote from: katrimans on December 26, 2016, 04:17:31 PM

Quote from: aardvark15 on December 11, 2016, 08:55:48 AM

If a government tried to buy up a huge amount of Bitcoins, it seems like it would drive the price up. Also, there are many people that are probably just holding Bitcoins as a long term investment and won't sell anyway.

I think the governments are not going to buy bitcoin, they can only think about bitcoin that how to legalize it.
They will give opportunities to their people to trade bitcoin and use it as currency, if they really honest to bitcoin and want it as a global currency of the world.

You must be joking right? you think governments are giving their people free pass that easy on bitcoins? they are monitoring trades bigger than 1k+ bitcoins and will take action to collect their tax money if needed rest assure.

a free pass to use & participate but not a tax free path. Most people will probably be happy to pay tax when they exchange sell. For others they may wish to obfuscate their activity. Others may hold and only sell when bitcoin reaches a price much higher than today, in which case they will head to the most bitcoin friendly jurisdiction. It is a blurry future in this regard, but if you hold 1000 btc and the price is 5k, it would be a no brainer to take up residency in a friendly country for the purpose of minimising your tax.

Most people means more than 50% of that group of people. I don't think the number is even close to that, the majority of people here don't want to pay any taxes on their Bitcoin holdings. Such people should be in single digits, if not even just a few individuals. Really, people traded or mined their bitcoins, and now the government wants to take part of their profits, especially if it is well known that the authorities are not very friendly toward Bitcoin all in all. Why would anyone want to share their profits with someone who did nothing good regarding Bitcoin?

I would even add that why would one share a take of the profits he gained because he was clever ? I'm formerly against any type of tax, because it has no purpose. Well, if you could pay the taxes in Bitcoin, that might do it, but in case you'd cannot, I don't any reason to give it by yourself.

tee-rex

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Quote from: tabnloz on December 27, 2016, 01:17:54 AM

Quote from: freebutcaged on December 27, 2016, 12:40:48 AM

Quote from: katrimans on December 26, 2016, 04:17:31 PM

Quote from: aardvark15 on December 11, 2016, 08:55:48 AM

If a government tried to buy up a huge amount of Bitcoins, it seems like it would drive the price up. Also, there are many people that are probably just holding Bitcoins as a long term investment and won't sell anyway.

I think the governments are not going to buy bitcoin, they can only think about bitcoin that how to legalize it.
They will give opportunities to their people to trade bitcoin and use it as currency, if they really honest to bitcoin and want it as a global currency of the world.

You must be joking right? you think governments are giving their people free pass that easy on bitcoins? they are monitoring trades bigger than 1k+ bitcoins and will take action to collect their tax money if needed rest assure.

a free pass to use & participate but not a tax free path. Most people will probably be happy to pay tax when they exchange sell. For others they may wish to obfuscate their activity. Others may hold and only sell when bitcoin reaches a price much higher than today, in which case they will head to the most bitcoin friendly jurisdiction. It is a blurry future in this regard, but if you hold 1000 btc and the price is 5k, it would be a no brainer to take up residency in a friendly country for the purpose of minimising your tax.

Most people means more than 50% of that group of people. I don't think the number is even close to that, the majority of people here don't want to pay any taxes on their Bitcoin holdings. Such people should be in single digits, if not even just a few individuals. Really, people traded or mined their bitcoins, and now the government wants to take part of their profits, especially if it is well known that the authorities are not very friendly toward Bitcoin all in all. Why would anyone want to share their profits with someone who did nothing good regarding Bitcoin?

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Quote from: tabnloz on December 27, 2016, 01:17:54 AM

Quote from: freebutcaged on December 27, 2016, 12:40:48 AM

Quote from: katrimans on December 26, 2016, 04:17:31 PM

Quote from: aardvark15 on December 11, 2016, 08:55:48 AM

If a government tried to buy up a huge amount of Bitcoins, it seems like it would drive the price up. Also, there are many people that are probably just holding Bitcoins as a long term investment and won't sell anyway.

I think the governments are not going to buy bitcoin, they can only think about bitcoin that how to legalize it.
They will give opportunities to their people to trade bitcoin and use it as currency, if they really honest to bitcoin and want it as a global currency of the world.

You must be joking right? you think governments are giving their people free pass that easy on bitcoins? they are monitoring trades bigger than 1k+ bitcoins and will take action to collect their tax money if needed rest assure.

a free pass to use & participate but not a tax free path. Most people will probably be happy to pay tax when they exchange sell. For others they may wish to obfuscate their activity. Others may hold and only sell when bitcoin reaches a price much higher than today, in which case they will head to the most bitcoin friendly jurisdiction. It is a blurry future in this regard, but if you hold 1000 btc and the price is 5k, it would be a no brainer to take up residency in a friendly country for the purpose of minimising your tax.

Every government monitor any transaction that is off the limit, is it bitcoin gold silver oil or something else, example is friend of mine he withdrawal more then 80K euros in bitcoin in two days they come to collect 35K tax for additional income, no matter if our government dont accept bitcoin as payment he got tax. But most whales that have been from start are on the big income from beginning they want to have more and more and for every day they have. Image the ones from start when price was nothing imagine how much they have now

tabnloz

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Quote from: freebutcaged on December 27, 2016, 12:40:48 AM

Quote from: katrimans on December 26, 2016, 04:17:31 PM

Quote from: aardvark15 on December 11, 2016, 08:55:48 AM

If a government tried to buy up a huge amount of Bitcoins, it seems like it would drive the price up. Also, there are many people that are probably just holding Bitcoins as a long term investment and won't sell anyway.

I think the governments are not going to buy bitcoin, they can only think about bitcoin that how to legalize it.
They will give opportunities to their people to trade bitcoin and use it as currency, if they really honest to bitcoin and want it as a global currency of the world.

You must be joking right? you think governments are giving their people free pass that easy on bitcoins? they are monitoring trades bigger than 1k+ bitcoins and will take action to collect their tax money if needed rest assure.

a free pass to use & participate but not a tax free path. Most people will probably be happy to pay tax when they exchange sell. For others they may wish to obfuscate their activity. Others may hold and only sell when bitcoin reaches a price much higher than today, in which case they will head to the most bitcoin friendly jurisdiction. It is a blurry future in this regard, but if you hold 1000 btc and the price is 5k, it would be a no brainer to take up residency in a friendly country for the purpose of minimising your tax.

freebutcaged

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Quote from: katrimans on December 26, 2016, 04:17:31 PM

Quote from: aardvark15 on December 11, 2016, 08:55:48 AM

If a government tried to buy up a huge amount of Bitcoins, it seems like it would drive the price up. Also, there are many people that are probably just holding Bitcoins as a long term investment and won't sell anyway.

I think the governments are not going to buy bitcoin, they can only think about bitcoin that how to legalize it.
They will give opportunities to their people to trade bitcoin and use it as currency, if they really honest to bitcoin and want it as a global currency of the world.

You must be joking right? you think governments are giving their people free pass that easy on bitcoins? they are monitoring trades bigger than 1k+ bitcoins and will take action to collect their tax money if needed rest assure.

tabnloz

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Quote from: tee-rex on December 26, 2016, 08:58:33 AM

Quote from: d@nte on December 25, 2016, 04:11:23 PM

Quote from: justdimin on December 25, 2016, 02:56:50 PM

Quote from: NetFreak199 on December 09, 2016, 09:00:44 PM

May be they also waiting for the big pump would happen to btc or they already sell it bit by bits when the price increasing slowly, we don't know what they already thinking

Yes they may also be waiting for the price of increase, as if they start selling bitcoin it will effect the market a little, just for some time and after that the price will again start increasing, so they are waiting for the price to reach to some high price and then they start selling their bitcoin gradually.

If there's something I've learned in the few months that I'm in crypto, it's that the whales are in no hurry, and they know Bitcoin's potential very well. In addition to the large holdings, they certainly also have money invested in exchanges, so they do not lose the profit possibilities that exist riding the waves in the market, especially now that we are in moments of high volatility.

Another reason why they might not want to cash out their piles of bitcoins is possible tax implications that could be caused by massive sell-offs. Even if they are able to get a decent price at the peak of demand for bitcoins, they might have issues withdrawing so much cash. Smaller exchanges may just run away with their coins, the bigger ones may want to know where these bitcoins come from in accordance with the KYC policies and then report to the IRS and their likes.

Could be many reasons.

Bitcoin is deflationary with a set cap of 21m and operates outside of govt control. In the current economic climate (currency controls, cash bans, debt / QE induced bubbles) any significant stake has the potential to increase in value enormously. Short to medium term things are looking very positive so if you have a big stake why would you cash out?

My current thinking is that bitcoins use case is becoming clearer as a store of value in a crisis. Look at the spike in interest in India, Venezuela. Users in the West don't as yet have the incentive to use bitcoin as our regular methods work fine, unlike these other places. If some of the larger national or global debt bubbles implode I think bitcoin will see a massive tidal surge of interest (and therefore increase in price). On top of that, the tech continues to be recognised as a breakthrough. If the ETF gets approved then the big money can gain exposure without the stigma or regulatory burden of buying directly.

Topic: Why the big whales are not cashing out? - page 2. (Read 7557 times)