Topic: Why the Bitcoin community HAS to save the network from HashFast, CoinTerra, BFL. (Read 9843 times)

hi guys

so when our asic will be ready?

i m trying to make a 35 nm of around 0.8giga on small die and it s damn complicated

how are your plan s is going?do you have a design or else already?

fab is choosen or yet?

keep me posted

thanks

you just don't get it man. Its the corporations ASIC makers keeping down the people! We will build our own society ASIC's using vegan fair trade silicon and there will be peace and love and drum circles forever.

Competition, that's what it takes, notice the prices dropping as new ASIC companies come about.


The price of ASICS is determined by what people are willing to pay. You have many people willing to pay $3500 for the asic, if you provide asics at a much more reasonable $350 for the same hash, you'll have that same person buying 10. If you can fully supply with no delays, you'll have an even more massive spike in difficulty, thus making the ROI in the same ballpark as it is now. On top of that, if OurASIC isn't making much of a margin, your customers will be, as the OurASIC devices will end up at auction to whomever is willing to pay the premium.

The hardware companies aren't mining on everyone's preorders, the money is in the profit margins of the ASICS,, the more they sell, the more they will sell. It's a very unique industry. Cars, TVs, Computers, the more you sell, the more your sales slow down as the market is saturated, ASICS? The more you saturate the market, the more you will sell.

Not sure where to begin.  Number one probably is that bitcoin community isn't a sick animal so there is nothing to save.  It's just a lot of different people doing different things for many different reasons.  Number two I'd love to here how much you are willing to contribute to this saving crusade seeing that you said you are bitcoin veterans.  But this is all bound to fail since you seem to just want to move profits around from one group to another nothing else.  Let's imagine for a second a magic box into which you can stick 2 mil worth of bitcoins and out will pop ASIC design for you.  Now what?  You say we are going to let it be open source and then "the community" will have cheap chips.  Really?  How are you picturing this working?  Joe in America, or Sebastian in Germany, or Ming in China will just call up TSMC and order a few chips they can screw onto their iPad with a dirty screwdriver and out pops an ASIC miner?  What will happen is ASIC manufacturers will order these chips manufacter a miner and guess how much they will charge to sell it?  MARKET PRICE. So in this instance you propose to take all these crusader bitcoin community savers money and transfer it to these other ASIC manufacturers.  Right?  So you say no way this greed is bad we will make our own miners to sell below market price.  Ok let's see how that will work.  You hire some people to build these miner but now you have to somehow select who gets them below market price since everyone wants 10 and obviously if you sell them all to them it's no longer below market price so you have to pick winners somehow.  Maybe you have a lottery or your employees start picking their friends names out of the hat and the the rumors start that someone is selling them at market prices out the back door ala BFL rumors.  You start shipping and all of a sudden they start getting "lost" or "stolen" or "broken" because people want a few extra at below market prices.  Is this what you had in mind to save the bitcoin community? 

We did not vanish. We were just doing further market research to make sure the project is feasible. We are more confidant than before in the community's ability to execute this project. First steps first, we need to select the treasurers. A new thread will be created to take nominations from the community. For the next 3 days, everyone would be able to nominate members of bitcointalk.org for the role of the treasurers. Only "Full Members", or "Sr Members" or "Hero Members" can be nominated. After 3 days, we will create a poll with a list of all the nominations. The poll will run for another 3 days. The top 10 members voted will be selected as treasurers.

In the meanwhile, we will be contacting different ASIC design companies to get formal quotes for the design.

If the original concept of the post is correct. I think the best way to push the hardware providers to sell the equipment instead of mining with our pre-buy money, is to do a massive BTC sell, the price should go down and in panic they will deliver the units to avoid refunds and to get more orders and profit on hardware.

Probably is impossible to organize such massive coorditaned BTC sell.

:-)

TMC

You know what, just because the idea was abandoned, doesn't mean its not good or a bad idea. I think, DZ, we are in a better position to either start another similar movement or continue this.

We could form something, talk to certain chip makers, talk to fabricators, talk to engineers, do the whole thing, except we are not a company. We are not a corporation. We don't even have to be a cooperative.

Key people are important, of course. But, take bitcoin itself. We have been abandoned, by the founder, but the project continues. Maybe he's out there? Just watching? We don't know.

Open source. Chips. Designs. Boards. Miners. Fabs. 130nm, 65, 55, 28, 14. 300 MH/s, 600, 1 GH/s, 2, 5, 10.

Imagine, whether or not we make money, but thousands of individuals have access or the power, each one doing 500 GH/s or more.

As Andrew Carnegie once said, I'd rather have 1% of the efforts of 100 people, than 100% all by myself.

Shall I start recruiting? Or do we wait for volunteers?

I had this dream or vision of forming an association of bitcoin escrow agents. Never had a need, and I thought it would be like herding cats.

I think reality smacked him hard with the hammer of truth. The world sucks get used to it 

Nah, Dabs, I wasn't talking about *us* abandoning customers.

I'm talking about the Original Posters - OurAsic - just up & vanishing, after trying to pull the strangest pump & dump scam or bait & switch scam I've ever seen.

The Mary Celeste was found abandoned, much like we found this thread: abandoned!  

Hey buddy! Do you "vett for free"? hehehe. I got a Group Buy.

I dunno about being the "Mary Celeste", what I do know is that immediately after Zefir's first Group Buy of Avalon chips, I started the 2nd Group Buy of Avalon chips at almost the same time as (or even earlier than) SebastianJu's. Which turned out to be a failure. (Their's eventually also failed, but at least the first batches of chips arrived.)

As the "Captain" I did not abandon my "crew". I got abandoned. (All fully refunded.) But had the fortune to be included in another mining venture.


I'm a lone worker. Even though I stand to make a profit, or even if I don't, it's going to be an experience and some fun being one of the little guys that could.

I do believe almost all ASIC devices are overpriced or will not ROI within a month. But coming from an offline, brick and mortar, traditional business perspective, something that ROIs under 2 or 3 years is very good.

At first I tried to offer chips. DIY. Didn't work. Now, hopefully, people take advantage of working finished products, at least for the novelty, for the fun, and for the benefit of the bitcoin network.

Will they make money? Probably not. But you have a blinking light!

Will I make money? I think the correct question is, would it be worth my time and effort? Probably not. It's going to be real work packaging and sending off 30, 300 or 3000 units, and it's possible I'm just going to cover my costs. I will probably be better off working my normal job or business, but I did say I'm doing this on my spare time after regular office hours.

Will it be fun? Probably. At least, that's what I'm counting on.

The key here is watts/hash/$$.

If we can get cheapish miners to the masses we win.

Corps have cost's

I can run 1 kw of miners without to much pain and itching on my electricity bill.

The big miners has huge costs. Dual supply's and Ups's do not come cheap. Genny back up, rack mounts, dual switching networking not to mention static switches.. These all come at huge cost.

Trust me, us little guys can stay solvent way longer than the big boys.

If we can level the hardware costs the big boys are toast, and as they shut down then we make the $$$'s 

Thank you OurASIC and all above for bringing community sourced ASICs back to foreground.

The most important thing is having a vision and transform it into real, viable plan. The discussion is already lit up. That's the best way to get there.

We might argue if a company is evil or not when trying to max profit at free market while staying in compliance with law. But that's not the important bit.

The most important question that enables us to forge viable plan: What is our advantage as a community over a "evil" company?

As many of you suggested above, market does apply to a community project same as commercial one. (People wouldn't buy community ASIC when there is better commercial deal.) So, let's see what community can do better than a commercial start-up.

Personally, I think our biggest advantage is being able to take the time to develop as good as it gets. A ASIC commercial company needs to make profit as soon as possible. Their chips could be twice (maybe more) as good, but the capital they use is not their own and expenses on keeping investment grow in time. They have to make some fiat profit fast.

The second big advantage (still my personal opinions) is community funding "as seen on Kickstarter". I would give my money to open community project where I know where my money goes, whats the state of it and the "never done before" goal we share. Where having it stuck as pre-order at some company is scary. My money could be on their way to Bahamas already.

And the third is the brains. A commercial company can offer money to developers, and then throw them away when they done their job. We can offer money too, but on top of that, well ... Companies come and go. ... We as a community are here to stay as long as there is math and some kind of money in the world.

What do you think is our advantage(s) if any?

Hey Dabs! How are you buddy?

Well, 2 of their 10 requested treasurer candidates showed up with qualifications to spare, but there doesn't appear to be a there there.

We seem to have arrived on the Custom Hardware forum equivalent of the Mary Celeste: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/abandoned-200711.html


However, OurASIC is founded in Delaware allegedly. Hmm, isn't VMC founded in Delaware too? Coincidental?

You know, there are literally hundreds and thousands of people contributing to distributed networks without making profit at all.

Folding proteins, looking for aliens, calculating large prime numbers, factoring RSA numbers, ... while bitcoin will have those who are in it just for the profits, there are those individuals who will mine just because they can, with whatever hardware they can use.

As for this OurAsic, I volunteer to be one of the treasurers. You can look me up and see if I can be trusted with thousands of coins in escrow. I've always wanted to escrow a 100,000 BTC transaction, maybe now I can.

Well lets see some of those well known names

I agree with btc-engineer on many points
Many of my posts and talks on irc for example bitminter i have mentioned that Asic chips are extreme cheap
Ofcourse it also depends on the initial bought numbers to produce, but in general they are pretty damn cheap.
In great numbers asic cost not even $5 to 10 to be made
Somehow nobody wanted the listen because of the mass only see the massive hash power they do.

That being said does not mean a miner as a complete package will be cheap, it greatly depends on how and with what quality such a device is build. I have not see the kncminer up close yet. But far as i can see on the pictures, they are building pretty good quality hardware.

Ofcourse that they ask this steep prices is because the market is there, so they take what people accept.
However they all are overpriced and all asic builders know that, and will continue till profitabilty on mining drops below the hashpower produced by the hardware.
If you can get this done before next year when the net will be flooded with massive datacenters full of hardware coming to get the most coins you can make the smaller miners happy till these massive machines run.
I think after this has happened mining is not for the masses anymore but for the biggest wallet people out there and investment companies.

Who else are able to invest many millions in hardware, not me i am just a super tiny miner not even getting 0.01 a day
In a like 6 months my newly bought hardware will be useless, and probably will not even make the money i put into it.

The big players and the current hardware sellers who plan to mine on their own wil be the winners, they got huge profits and can invest them back into even better hardware. Many do allready and as far as i know all are mining with pretty big numbers on the net.

Can I join?

Approx. 28 posts & well over a day since OP visited this post. Hmm, one would think that one would tend better to one's launch thread if put in a similar position.  

Anyway, in the small hope that you guys are serious & not another person or group of persons trying to do a "pump & dump" type scheme, here's my credentials as a possible treasurer, besides reading through my first 2 Group Buy threads:


Approx. value of GBEC / GBC ASIC pre-order sales or pre-sales of shares on this (the GB) forum by DZ in last 5 weeks: $10.1-11.1K
Approx. value of DZ ebay sales (including 4 HF Baby Jet shares listed on ebay/BTC Talk GB forum & purchased on ebay worth $620) since Aug.1 : $3.3K
Approx. value of ASIC related hardware or services currently listed items on ebay by DZ: $30.5K, selling as a trusted intermediary
Several new GBCs and Bitcoin Miner Hosts vetted for free, and several scams pointed out on two BTC related forums.
-Data current as of 9/17/2013

I rest my case, your honor.   I'd also tell you guys to chill the phuck out about possible libelous/defamatory statements about competitors. Fo' free.

Very nice project.
I think that the competitive nature of the capitalism system we live in will acheive the same within a nine montb time frame..  Asic being quite new, those kind of profit taking from manufacturer are normal and wont last..

Just my two satoshi

Start a topic for treasurer nominations already!