Topic: Why the testnet reset? (Read 1628 times)

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 02:55:30 PM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 08, 2013, 02:49:14 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

Nothing wrong with selling those.

Here's another thread about selling bitcoin testnet coins:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1758171

Yes, I have read such threads before. I can see that it makes people mad. I don't agree that that should or will stop everybody.

It's odd when "making a coin valuable" is an attack vector.

It shouldn't make people mad. For testnet to be useful, we need people to use it. For that to happen, the coins need to have some value to them.

Wait, why do we need to use testnet for anything other than testing?

TESTnet

IMHO they should run a cronjob somewhere that does whatever they need to do to reset testnet like every month or something.

For testnet to be useful, it should simulate activities that people do with bitcoin. Since the devs are terrified of making any changes that might break Bitcoin, it makes sense to have a testnet that is Bitcoin on a smaller scale to test on. The devs aren't willing to make ambitious changes to Bitcoin, and if something goes wrong, point out that it's in beta.

Wolf0

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It was only the wind.

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 02:55:30 PM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 08, 2013, 02:49:14 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

Nothing wrong with selling those.

Here's another thread about selling bitcoin testnet coins:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1758171

Yes, I have read such threads before. I can see that it makes people mad. I don't agree that that should or will stop everybody.

It's odd when "making a coin valuable" is an attack vector.

It shouldn't make people mad. For testnet to be useful, we need people to use it. For that to happen, the coins need to have some value to them.

jackjack

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May Bitcoin be touched by his Noodly Appendage

Why not?
Don't agree with testnet bitcoin rules? Make your own and stop crying.

Rampion

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Quote from: crazy_rabbit on May 25, 2013, 09:41:36 AM

Quote from: Wolf0 on May 08, 2013, 04:48:46 PM

Quote from: mc_lovin on May 08, 2013, 04:46:29 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 02:55:30 PM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 08, 2013, 02:49:14 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

Nothing wrong with selling those.

Here's another thread about selling bitcoin testnet coins:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1758171

Yes, I have read such threads before. I can see that it makes people mad. I don't agree that that should or will stop everybody.

It's odd when "making a coin valuable" is an attack vector.

It shouldn't make people mad. For testnet to be useful, we need people to use it. For that to happen, the coins need to have some value to them.

Wait, why do we need to use testnet for anything other than testing?

TESTnet

IMHO they should run a cronjob somewhere that does whatever they need to do to reset testnet like every month or something.

For testnet to be useful, it should simulate activities that people do with bitcoin. Since the devs are terrified of making any changes that might break Bitcoin, it makes sense to have a testnet that is Bitcoin on a smaller scale to test on. The devs aren't willing to make ambitious changes to Bitcoin, and if something goes wrong, point out that it's in beta.

That's exactly the thing. At this point everything satoshi said has become sacred and no one is willing to change anything on bitcoin. Because of that it's so hard to test so many things now because so much money depends on it. People literally freak out at the mention of changing anything. So lets do it with testnet. Testnet coins need value so that people care enough to test it hard-core.

Following your logic people should test on Bitcoin because it actually has a lot of value, but then you say that because of it devs are afraid to break something. If testnet coins have value, then the devs will be afraid to break it too. IMO testnet should mimic Bitcoin, and people will have the incentive to test on it because its a valueless copycat of a system which actually holds A LOT of value.

crazy_rabbit

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RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME

Quote from: Wolf0 on May 08, 2013, 04:48:46 PM

Quote from: mc_lovin on May 08, 2013, 04:46:29 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 02:55:30 PM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 08, 2013, 02:49:14 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

Nothing wrong with selling those.

Here's another thread about selling bitcoin testnet coins:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1758171

Yes, I have read such threads before. I can see that it makes people mad. I don't agree that that should or will stop everybody.

It's odd when "making a coin valuable" is an attack vector.

It shouldn't make people mad. For testnet to be useful, we need people to use it. For that to happen, the coins need to have some value to them.

Wait, why do we need to use testnet for anything other than testing?

TESTnet

IMHO they should run a cronjob somewhere that does whatever they need to do to reset testnet like every month or something.

For testnet to be useful, it should simulate activities that people do with bitcoin. Since the devs are terrified of making any changes that might break Bitcoin, it makes sense to have a testnet that is Bitcoin on a smaller scale to test on. The devs aren't willing to make ambitious changes to Bitcoin, and if something goes wrong, point out that it's in beta.

That's exactly the thing. At this point everything satoshi said has become sacred and no one is willing to change anything on bitcoin. Because of that it's so hard to test so many things now because so much money depends on it. People literally freak out at the mention of changing anything. So lets do it with testnet. Testnet coins need value so that people care enough to test it hard-core.

Walter Rothbard

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Quote from: Rampion on May 09, 2013, 08:13:41 AM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 06:56:54 PM

Let's test what happens when testnet coins become valuable!

And now let's test what happens when you reset after the coins became valuable!

That sounds like an interesting test, too.

Rampion

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Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 06:56:54 PM

Let's test what happens when testnet coins become valuable!

And now let's test what happens when you reset after the coins became valuable!

Walter Rothbard

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Let's test what happens when testnet coins become valuable!

mc_lovin

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www.bitcointrading.com

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 02:55:30 PM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 08, 2013, 02:49:14 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

Nothing wrong with selling those.

Here's another thread about selling bitcoin testnet coins:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1758171

Yes, I have read such threads before. I can see that it makes people mad. I don't agree that that should or will stop everybody.

It's odd when "making a coin valuable" is an attack vector.

It shouldn't make people mad. For testnet to be useful, we need people to use it. For that to happen, the coins need to have some value to them.

Wait, why do we need to use testnet for anything other than testing?

TESTnet

IMHO they should run a cronjob somewhere that does whatever they need to do to reset testnet like every month or something.

Walter Rothbard

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 08, 2013, 02:49:14 PM

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

Nothing wrong with selling those.

Here's another thread about selling bitcoin testnet coins:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1758171

Yes, I have read such threads before. I can see that it makes people mad. I don't agree that that should or will stop everybody.

It's odd when "making a coin valuable" is an attack vector.

Buffer Overflow

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1016

Quote from: Walter Rothbard on May 08, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

Nothing wrong with selling those.

Here's another thread about selling bitcoin testnet coins:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1758171

Walter Rothbard

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 08, 2013, 12:56:18 PM

Ironically testnet coins are valuable to developers because they are by their very nature valueless.
If they had momentary value then they would be useless for testing purposes.

Now and again some twat on here tries selling them, forcing the powers that be to restart the chain making them valueless again. Which annoys them and wastes their time.

Guilty as charged.

I've currently got a sell offer in on another thread, actually.

And I've bought and sold BBQcoins, which are supposed to be "just for fun."

To tell you the truth, I've always had trouble resisting when someone says "This is yours, but you may not sell it." It's kind of like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Buffer Overflow

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Activity: 1652

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Ironically testnet coins are valuable to developers because they are by their very nature valueless.
If they had momentary value then they would be useless for testing purposes.

Now and again some twat on here tries selling them, forcing the powers that be to restart the chain making them valueless again. Which annoys them and wastes their time.

Walter Rothbard

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm

Quote from: thep33t on May 08, 2013, 11:23:38 AM

If it has value, it will be mined, increasing difficulty, and therefore eliminating the main benefit of testnet - having coins to test with...

Anybody can get that value from testnet in a box.

What testnet can provide, that testnet in a box can not provide, is actual economic transactions between actual people.

tumak

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Quote from: tumak on May 08, 2013, 11:29:50 AM

Practical reasons - people ramped up difficulty on testnet1-2 and then stopped mining.

Waiting several hours for a single block to confirm interfered with the purpose of testnet. Hence the reset rule.

Not that reset, I mean the new genesis blocks.

Testnet is still difficult to mine as long the 20 minute rule is upheld.

From that perspective, the value can be derived from the stakes miners have in difficulty not being reset as it would massively devalue the coins they've mined thus far.

The "risk" of reset is immense, because all miners would have to tightly cooperate (not to mention external factors such as ddos attacks).

AmDD

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Quote from: AmDD on May 08, 2013, 11:25:44 AM

Its not there for testing the value of coins, I would say its for testing new hardware/software (ASICs, new mining programs, possibly wallets, etc).

With ASICs, companies can test them to be sure they work but not be blamed for mining on the BTC blockchain.

You can test software to make sure it sends coins correctly, rather than testing on the main blockchain and risking losing x number of bitcoins.

I see no reason for the testnet to have value, the name says it all, TESTnet.

But, say I want to test a new feature that has possible security implications. No one has any motive to try and exploit it, because testnet coins have no value. Then it goes into Bitcoin and gets raped.

Thats a good point, however any software programmer would have this issue. When you release a beta of some software you will probably only have a small number of people running it. Once it goes mainstream you run the risk of others exploiting it.

Also, if testnet has value then whats the difference between testing on there and have users loose coins and running it on Bitcoin and losing coins?

Because testnet coins would be worth LOTS less than actual coins.

Says who? is there a coded limit to the max value of the coins?

The coins will have some value always, even if its only $.00000000001. Someone will value them at SOMETHING. The reset was to keep this value as low as possible.

tumak

newbie

Activity: 35

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Practical reasons - people ramped up difficulty on testnet1-2 and then stopped mining.

Waiting several hours for a single block to confirm interfered with the purpose of testnet. Hence the reset rule.

AmDD

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Activity: 1027

Merit: 1005

Its not there for testing the value of coins, I would say its for testing new hardware/software (ASICs, new mining programs, possibly wallets, etc).

With ASICs, companies can test them to be sure they work but not be blamed for mining on the BTC blockchain.

You can test software to make sure it sends coins correctly, rather than testing on the main blockchain and risking losing x number of bitcoins.

I see no reason for the testnet to have value, the name says it all, TESTnet.

But, say I want to test a new feature that has possible security implications. No one has any motive to try and exploit it, because testnet coins have no value. Then it goes into Bitcoin and gets raped.

Thats a good point, however any software programmer would have this issue. When you release a beta of some software you will probably only have a small number of people running it. Once it goes mainstream you run the risk of others exploiting it.

Also, if testnet has value then whats the difference between testing on there and have users lose coins and running it on Bitcoin and losing coins?

Rampion

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Activity: 1148

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Its not there for testing the value of coins, I would say its for testing new hardware/software (ASICs, new mining programs, possibly wallets, etc).

With ASICs, companies can test them to be sure they work but not be blamed for mining on the BTC blockchain.

You can test software to make sure it sends coins correctly, rather than testing on the main blockchain and risking losing x number of bitcoins.

I see no reason for the testnet to have value, the name says it all, TESTnet.

But, say I want to test a new feature that has possible security implications. No one has any motive to try and exploit it, because testnet coins have no value. Then it goes into Bitcoin and gets raped.

That's plain stupid. Everybody has motivation because bitcoins HAVE value - and testnet is a copycat of Bitcoin.

thep33t

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