http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213
So apparently, money laundering for HSBC is allowed because otherwise the financial system would collapse
Topic: Why we need Bitcoins for international transactions (Read 8814 times)
Funny, I just recently read this article about HSBC:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213
So apparently, money laundering for HSBC is allowed because otherwise the financial system would collapse
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213
So apparently, money laundering for HSBC is allowed because otherwise the financial system would collapse
"Hey, in Japan they only have JPY, and my local intermediary in Japan can process this wire as a domestic transfer for only USD 10. Let's convert the amount to JPY, and take 3000 JPY fee for the whole process!"
That must be what happened here:
Quote
I asked my big bank to wire a hundred dollars to the bank MtGox suggested which is in Japan. Well, my bank cannot send dollars to Japan, only yen. And since I requested dollars, they had first transfer the money to JPMorgan, a bank that can transfer dollars.
- http://blog.archive.org/2012/12/19/i-donated-bitcoins-to-the-internet-archive/
What "big bank" cannot send an International bank wire transfer in USDs?
I have sent international transfers into Gox through both your HSBC and Sumitomo bank accounts, and I have found that Sumotimo/Sumitomo's intermediate bank almost always takes a very large cut in processing and conversion fees - between 4% - 10%. I am sure I am not the only person this has happened to. By comparison, HSBC have always been extremely cheap (less than 1%).
MagicalTux can you please get your HSBC account reinstated, it would save a lot of bitcoiners a lot of money. I would much rather my money go towards supporting the bitcoin price than supporting Sumitomo's bottom line.
MagicalTux can you please get your HSBC account reinstated, it would save a lot of bitcoiners a lot of money. I would much rather my money go towards supporting the bitcoin price than supporting Sumitomo's bottom line.
Hi,
The intermediate bank depends on your own bank, not the receiving bank. Also there should be no conversion fees, unless your bank messes up something. The only fee that should appear in a perfect world (ie. for example when sending from a major US bank) is our reception fee of ¥1000.
HSBC officially stated that they do not want to see anything related close or far to bitcoin, and kicked out. We asked if it'd be possible to get back in and got politely told that it wouldn't happen anytime soon.
Mark
Thanks for the response MagicalTux. That is interesting news about HSBC. If HSBC have indeed sworn off bitcoin, would you consider opening an extra bank account with another more bitcoin-friendly bank? Having only one bank account for accepting international wire transfers seems a bit precarious to me - what if sumitomo decided to take the same line as HSBC? Also, I think it would help in alleviating the large international wire transfer and conversion fees that many of us are experiencing. Just a suggestion.
HSBC has MUCH BIGGER problems with highly regulated fiat since their Mexican and US affiliates have been laundering Billions of Dollars of Drug Money for years and many other affiliates have been doing illegal business with IRAN. They are facing serious sanctions and potentially billion dollar fines. The last thing they need right now is to deal an unregulated instrument like bitcoin.
From the Financial Timeshttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ace83b9a-e6fc-11e1-af33-00144feab49a.html#axzz23iH512MC
From the Financial Timeshttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ace83b9a-e6fc-11e1-af33-00144feab49a.html#axzz23iH512MC
HSBC officially stated that they do not want to see anything related close or far to bitcoin, and kicked out. We asked if it'd be possible to get back in and got politely told that it wouldn't happen anytime soon.
Are Bitcoins illegal in at least one of the countries you sent/received payments from on your HSBC account?
If not, is such discrimination on the part of HSBC legal? I'd sue them if something like this happened to me.
Yeah, is outright competition
HSBC officially stated that they do not want to see anything related close or far to bitcoin, and kicked out. We asked if it'd be possible to get back in and got politely told that it wouldn't happen anytime soon.
Are Bitcoins illegal in at least one of the countries you sent/received payments from on your HSBC account?
If not, is such discrimination on the part of HSBC legal? I'd sue them if something like this happened to me.
HSBC officially stated that they do not want to see anything related close or far to bitcoin, and kicked out. We asked if it'd be possible to get back in and got politely told that it wouldn't happen anytime soon.
Are Bitcoins illegal in at least one of the countries you sent/received payments from on your HSBC account?
If not, is such discrimination on the part of HSBC legal? I'd sue them if something like this happened to me.
.... and now you see a large reason why the "money laundering" ruse was trumped up to keep everyone using the creaking, groaning dinosaur rip-off called "international banking".
If people had a choice, they wouldn't ... all this KYC/AML crap helps keep out real competition .... mega banks=regulatory capture.
If people had a choice, they wouldn't ... all this KYC/AML crap helps keep out real competition .... mega banks=regulatory capture.
Appropriate for this thread:
Mt.Gox announced new guideline for all Fiat deposits
- http://mtgox.com/press_release_20120815.html
Mt.Gox announced new guideline for all Fiat deposits
- http://mtgox.com/press_release_20120815.html
It's interesting how one thing this could do is increase the volume of non-usd currencies. Right now a lot of them are traded pretty thinly - if I remember Canadian dollars see a lot more volume at cavertex than mtgox for instance.
From wikipedia.
SWIFT or IBAN wire transfers are not completely free of vulnerabilities.
Every intermediate bank that handles a wire transaction can take a fee directly out of the wire payload (the assets being transferred) without the account holder's knowledge or consent. In many places, there is no legislation or technical means to protect customers from this practice. If bank S is the sending bank (or brokerage), and bank R is the receiving bank (or brokerage), and banks I1, I2, and I3 are intermediary banks, the client may only have a contract with bank S and/or R, but banks I1, I2, and I3 can (and often do) take money from the wire without any direct arrangement with the client. Clients are sometimes taken by surprise when less money arrives at bank R.
Thats the banking system.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer
SWIFT or IBAN wire transfers are not completely free of vulnerabilities.
Every intermediate bank that handles a wire transaction can take a fee directly out of the wire payload (the assets being transferred) without the account holder's knowledge or consent. In many places, there is no legislation or technical means to protect customers from this practice. If bank S is the sending bank (or brokerage), and bank R is the receiving bank (or brokerage), and banks I1, I2, and I3 are intermediary banks, the client may only have a contract with bank S and/or R, but banks I1, I2, and I3 can (and often do) take money from the wire without any direct arrangement with the client. Clients are sometimes taken by surprise when less money arrives at bank R.
Thats the banking system.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer
One of my computer science professors (in the late 90s) went on a tangent in class one day about how antiquated and vulnerable the wire transfer system is (and it has not been updated/fixed since then). He's a very well respected guy in industry and gets brought in from time to time to consult on such systems for large institutions. His takeaway, and the subject of his rant that day in class, was that the entire system needs to be re-written from scratch. He advised us to never send any amount of money we cared about via wire transfer.
Appropriate for this thread:
Mt.Gox announced new guideline for all Fiat deposits
- http://mtgox.com/press_release_20120815.html
Mt.Gox announced new guideline for all Fiat deposits
- http://mtgox.com/press_release_20120815.html
In the end, that's 104.07 USD that went into useless currency exchange and intermediate fees.
I agree with you in general, but I don't think you should use this particularly bad example of doing business. Last time I sent money to MtGox (using UBS in Switzerland) it took about 4 hours and my loss was negligible. So it *is* possible to do not just better, but so much better that the result is comparable to Bitcoin itself.
Yes, there are good banks (as in "they know how to do banking") in this world too. I was just trying to put some spotlight on a not very documented practice by some banks to convert funds because they think they are helping (especially with such a large fee).
It was a withdrawal.
I'm just using Dwollar now. Only used the bankwire as my gox account han't been verified yet.
I'm just using Dwollar now. Only used the bankwire as my gox account han't been verified yet.
The title asks a question. All the sorry discussion in this thread answers it. Now we need to move from "why?" to "how?".
In the end, that's 104.07 USD that went into useless currency exchange and intermediate fees.
I agree with you in general, but I don't think you should use this particularly bad example of doing business. Last time I sent money to MtGox (using UBS in Switzerland) it took about 4 hours and my loss was negligible. So it *is* possible to do not just better, but so much better that the result is comparable to Bitcoin itself.
Here's another reason:
I have a hobby OSHW (open source hardware) project. I purchase components and circuitboards from China via paypal, build/test them here and sell em. So that costs me .30 + 2.9% + "wholesale" exchange rate (whatever that is?) + 2.5% paypal conversion fee. Now I sell to someone in Europe (for example), and again someone pays .30 + 2.9% + "wholesale" exchange rate + 2.5% paypal conversion fee. So the total fee for the product "cycle" (fabrication -> sale) is .60 + 11% + 2 "wholesale" currency exchanges.
It doesn't matter whether I, my suppliers, or my customers pay these fees (the system spreads them out so the total is not obvious).
Adding it all up there is a greater then 11% finance charge to bring the product to the customer!
This isn't a case like the OP posted where something went wrong... this is the BEST possible case. No wonder the founder of paypal can now build rocket ships!!!
Now to beat a dead horse, contrast it to bitcoin: The fees for Bitcoin transfers are negligible. But even if you go from fiat to BTC back to fiat, you are looking at < .5% fee at the exchanges and that's 2 exchanges so that's a 1% total fee. Bitcoin will save me 10%!
Bitcoin may see a lot of competition in areas like mobile payments, but there is absolutely no doubt that it has a "killer app" in small to medium-sized international transfers.
I have a hobby OSHW (open source hardware) project. I purchase components and circuitboards from China via paypal, build/test them here and sell em. So that costs me .30 + 2.9% + "wholesale" exchange rate (whatever that is?) + 2.5% paypal conversion fee. Now I sell to someone in Europe (for example), and again someone pays .30 + 2.9% + "wholesale" exchange rate + 2.5% paypal conversion fee. So the total fee for the product "cycle" (fabrication -> sale) is .60 + 11% + 2 "wholesale" currency exchanges.
It doesn't matter whether I, my suppliers, or my customers pay these fees (the system spreads them out so the total is not obvious).
Adding it all up there is a greater then 11% finance charge to bring the product to the customer!
This isn't a case like the OP posted where something went wrong... this is the BEST possible case. No wonder the founder of paypal can now build rocket ships!!!
Now to beat a dead horse, contrast it to bitcoin: The fees for Bitcoin transfers are negligible. But even if you go from fiat to BTC back to fiat, you are looking at < .5% fee at the exchanges and that's 2 exchanges so that's a 1% total fee. Bitcoin will save me 10%!
Bitcoin may see a lot of competition in areas like mobile payments, but there is absolutely no doubt that it has a "killer app" in small to medium-sized international transfers.
Sumitomo Bank took $40 off a $400 transfer :/
It was to a US HSBC account too.
And it took nearly 3 weeks.
Are you sure you're talking about a deposit?It was to a US HSBC account too.
And it took nearly 3 weeks.
From wikipedia.
SWIFT or IBAN wire transfers are not completely free of vulnerabilities.
Every intermediate bank that handles a wire transaction can take a fee directly out of the wire payload (the assets being transferred) without the account holder's knowledge or consent. In many places, there is no legislation or technical means to protect customers from this practice. If bank S is the sending bank (or brokerage), and bank R is the receiving bank (or brokerage), and banks I1, I2, and I3 are intermediary banks, the client may only have a contract with bank S and/or R, but banks I1, I2, and I3 can (and often do) take money from the wire without any direct arrangement with the client. Clients are sometimes taken by surprise when less money arrives at bank R.
Thats the banking system.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer
SWIFT or IBAN wire transfers are not completely free of vulnerabilities.
Every intermediate bank that handles a wire transaction can take a fee directly out of the wire payload (the assets being transferred) without the account holder's knowledge or consent. In many places, there is no legislation or technical means to protect customers from this practice. If bank S is the sending bank (or brokerage), and bank R is the receiving bank (or brokerage), and banks I1, I2, and I3 are intermediary banks, the client may only have a contract with bank S and/or R, but banks I1, I2, and I3 can (and often do) take money from the wire without any direct arrangement with the client. Clients are sometimes taken by surprise when less money arrives at bank R.
Thats the banking system.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer
Usually larger banks are able to send between each other with only one intermediate (and sometimes they can even avoid using an intermediate).
From wikipedia.
SWIFT or IBAN wire transfers are not completely free of vulnerabilities.
Every intermediate bank that handles a wire transaction can take a fee directly out of the wire payload (the assets being transferred) without the account holder's knowledge or consent. In many places, there is no legislation or technical means to protect customers from this practice. If bank S is the sending bank (or brokerage), and bank R is the receiving bank (or brokerage), and banks I1, I2, and I3 are intermediary banks, the client may only have a contract with bank S and/or R, but banks I1, I2, and I3 can (and often do) take money from the wire without any direct arrangement with the client. Clients are sometimes taken by surprise when less money arrives at bank R.
Thats the banking system.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer
SWIFT or IBAN wire transfers are not completely free of vulnerabilities.
Every intermediate bank that handles a wire transaction can take a fee directly out of the wire payload (the assets being transferred) without the account holder's knowledge or consent. In many places, there is no legislation or technical means to protect customers from this practice. If bank S is the sending bank (or brokerage), and bank R is the receiving bank (or brokerage), and banks I1, I2, and I3 are intermediary banks, the client may only have a contract with bank S and/or R, but banks I1, I2, and I3 can (and often do) take money from the wire without any direct arrangement with the client. Clients are sometimes taken by surprise when less money arrives at bank R.
Thats the banking system.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_transfer
Fees and waiting times are ridiculous with international money transfers through the banks.
But of course they are in no hurry to modernize or compete, since people often find out when it is too late that they are being overcharged.
Also, for a lot of people, it's not something you do every day, leading the banks to have the upper hand in terms of knowlegde of how it all works and is supposed to be priced.
But of course they are in no hurry to modernize or compete, since people often find out when it is too late that they are being overcharged.
Also, for a lot of people, it's not something you do every day, leading the banks to have the upper hand in terms of knowlegde of how it all works and is supposed to be priced.
Sumitomo Bank took $40 off a $400 transfer :/
It was to a US HSBC account too.
And it took nearly 3 weeks.
It was to a US HSBC account too.
And it took nearly 3 weeks.
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