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Topic: Why when bitcoins rises the altcoins falls? (Read 1847 times)

hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
Time is on our side, yes it is!
it's simple really. people mine alts because the difficulties are much lower than that of btc. then, when btc rises, they sell off their alts to convert to btc which causes the price of the alt to drop (because of the selloff) and in turn causes btc to rise even more because people are buying it instead of selling.

Wow, I never put the miners into consideration which is something I feel silly about overlooking honestly.  The theory I had before is one I still believe but I feel the point you make is also valid then my suggestion.

miners are running a lot behind the scenes.  I am pretty sure big mining heavy hitters talk and make back room deals.  they are pumping and dumping.  alts are really a dangerous place to play.  a dev can release a coin.  the dev and friends can mine and mine.  and then once enough people are in, they can dump.  it happens over and over.

Well put jabo38.  I have just started paying some attention the the alts and I'm of the opinion that there is some manipulation taking place. 
So that does not surprise me that you'd suggest such deals taking place.  When you think of whales and miners and the potential of shady deals taking place it puts a lot of things in perspective, when looking for a alternative coin to invest in I'd say.  Not to mention the exchanges is just another aspect to take under consideration.

I have my doubts about market manulipation by the miners.

The miners have (usually) invested a lot in their machines.

IMO they would be the last set of people who would attempt to manulipate the market as market manulipation only decreases trust in the coin.

Just to clarify a little, when I say miners I mean larger shady groups not everybody mining in general.  It just seems likely to me some coordinated effort to profit from others not in the know is a likely possibility.

I think they overall trust wouldn't be lost in the coin just short term trust.  When people panic sell which they tend to do the manipulators then have an advantage because they initiated the problem in the first place.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 265
Because people sell alts to cash out BTC.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin
it's simple really. people mine alts because the difficulties are much lower than that of btc. then, when btc rises, they sell off their alts to convert to btc which causes the price of the alt to drop (because of the selloff) and in turn causes btc to rise even more because people are buying it instead of selling.

Wow, I never put the miners into consideration which is something I feel silly about overlooking honestly.  The theory I had before is one I still believe but I feel the point you make is also valid then my suggestion.

miners are running a lot behind the scenes.  I am pretty sure big mining heavy hitters talk and make back room deals.  they are pumping and dumping.  alts are really a dangerous place to play.  a dev can release a coin.  the dev and friends can mine and mine.  and then once enough people are in, they can dump.  it happens over and over.

Well put jabo38.  I have just started paying some attention the the alts and I'm of the opinion that there is some manipulation taking place. 
So that does not surprise me that you'd suggest such deals taking place.  When you think of whales and miners and the potential of shady deals taking place it puts a lot of things in perspective, when looking for a alternative coin to invest in I'd say.  Not to mention the exchanges is just another aspect to take under consideration.

I have my doubts about market manulipation by the miners.

The miners have (usually) invested a lot in their machines.

IMO they would be the last set of people who would attempt to manulipate the market as market manulipation only decreases trust in the coin.
legendary
Activity: 1588
Merit: 1000
I have noticed that in terms of US Dollars both BTC and alt coins have a positive correlation.



Yes, highly correlated = 0.841...
Above is a carefully constructed semi-cap weighted Alt Index (blue) vs BTC (gold)...
That had about 12 alts summer 2013... and now 22 alts summer 2014.

A coin is not added to the above index unless it's been on an exchange for 4-8 weeks...
So you are missing all the early mining gains and listing pumps...
Even without the real action experts capture... Alts as a universe have kept up with BTC gains.

There is a concept "fooled by randomness"...
Where most people own a few alts and use the "eye test"...
Then develop this "feeling" that BTC/Alts are negatively correlated... but it's mostly lags.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
Time is on our side, yes it is!
it's simple really. people mine alts because the difficulties are much lower than that of btc. then, when btc rises, they sell off their alts to convert to btc which causes the price of the alt to drop (because of the selloff) and in turn causes btc to rise even more because people are buying it instead of selling.

Wow, I never put the miners into consideration which is something I feel silly about overlooking honestly.  The theory I had before is one I still believe but I feel the point you make is also valid then my suggestion.

miners are running a lot behind the scenes.  I am pretty sure big mining heavy hitters talk and make back room deals.  they are pumping and dumping.  alts are really a dangerous place to play.  a dev can release a coin.  the dev and friends can mine and mine.  and then once enough people are in, they can dump.  it happens over and over.

Well put jabo38.  I have just started paying some attention the the alts and I'm of the opinion that there is some manipulation taking place. 
So that does not surprise me that you'd suggest such deals taking place.  When you think of whales and miners and the potential of shady deals taking place it puts a lot of things in perspective, when looking for a alternative coin to invest in I'd say.  Not to mention the exchanges is just another aspect to take under consideration.
legendary
Activity: 1441
Merit: 1000
Live and enjoy experiments
Since the majority loses money, you have to go against the herd.
full member
Activity: 211
Merit: 100
SatoshiGrid.com
bcause they dump to buy bitcoin

agree
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1070
bcause they dump to buy bitcoin
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin
When bitcoin rises it is in terms of fiat.

When alt-coins fall it is in terms of BTC.

In terms of fiat, alt-coins stay at roughly the same price.

True enough for "a few days or weeks", but some alt/usd have made stunning moves.
For example, Namecoin used to have a normal range of ~$0.40 to ~$0.70, then it exploded and went to around $10 each, which is a monster % gain for people who caught even part of the move.

Now NMC acts like it is 'dead forever', but someday...?

Personally I think that most alt-coins are really just a way that their creators are trying to get rich.

With NMC being the exception, pretty much all alt-coins do not provide any value that bitcoin does not already provide. If you are going to deal in alt-coins then you are speculating IMO (not that anything is wrong with that but speculating is not the same as investing)
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
it's simple really. people mine alts because the difficulties are much lower than that of btc. then, when btc rises, they sell off their alts to convert to btc which causes the price of the alt to drop (because of the selloff) and in turn causes btc to rise even more because people are buying it instead of selling.

Wow, I never put the miners into consideration which is something I feel silly about overlooking honestly.  The theory I had before is one I still believe but I feel the point you make is also valid then my suggestion.

miners are running a lot behind the scenes.  I am pretty sure big mining heavy hitters talk and make back room deals.  they are pumping and dumping.  alts are really a dangerous place to play.  a dev can release a coin.  the dev and friends can mine and mine.  and then once enough people are in, they can dump.  it happens over and over.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
Time is on our side, yes it is!
it's simple really. people mine alts because the difficulties are much lower than that of btc. then, when btc rises, they sell off their alts to convert to btc which causes the price of the alt to drop (because of the selloff) and in turn causes btc to rise even more because people are buying it instead of selling.

Wow, I never put the miners into consideration which is something I feel silly about overlooking honestly.  The theory I had before is one I still believe but I feel the point you make is also valid then my suggestion.
hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000
The alt coin price are all base on Bitcoin if the bitcoin went down the other will follow .
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
it's simple really. people mine alts because the difficulties are much lower than that of btc. then, when btc rises, they sell off their alts to convert to btc which causes the price of the alt to drop (because of the selloff) and in turn causes btc to rise even more because people are buying it instead of selling.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 500
Time is on our side, yes it is!
I feel people think they see an opportunity to make a profit in day trading so they drop their alt investments and hope to make some coin on BTC.  I think this is the same reason altcoins are so volitile at the moment anyway. 

If their is a pump going on then people will sell one coin and buy the other that is on the rise.  It's things like this that makes market manipulation something to worry about in my opinion.   
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
Check out this table:

http://coinfinance.com/gainers_losers/30_days


Even LTC and DOGE has deep fallen. It all started when BTC raised back, is it because the altcoins holders moved to BTC and started selling like crazy their alts in order to get some BTC ?

That is the best website I ever saw for Bitcoin.  I have been looking for something like that for a long time.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
If somebody is buying and alt, there is a 90% chance they are buying it with bitcoin. 

If somebody sells bitcoin the price goes down.  This happens at the same time somebody is buying and altcoin so the altcoin price goes up. 

But

If somebody is buying bitcoin, the price of bitcoin goes up.  This will happen at the same time that somebody is selling and altcoin which is pushing the price of the altcoin down. 

It doesn't have to be this way, but the averages make it so.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
people realize their altcoin sucks and are buying back into BTC
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
When bitcoin rises it is in terms of fiat.

When alt-coins fall it is in terms of BTC.

In terms of fiat, alt-coins stay at roughly the same price.

True enough for "a few days or weeks", but some alt/usd have made stunning moves.
For example, Namecoin used to have a normal range of ~$0.40 to ~$0.70, then it exploded and went to around $10 each, which is a monster % gain for people who caught even part of the move.

Now NMC acts like it is 'dead forever', but someday...?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
It's Money 2.0| It’s gold for nerds | It's Bitcoin
When bitcoin rises it is in terms of fiat.

When alt-coins fall it is in terms of BTC.

In terms of fiat, alt-coins stay at roughly the same price.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Check out this table:

http://coinfinance.com/gainers_losers/30_days


Even LTC and DOGE has deep fallen. It all started when BTC raised back, is it because the altcoins holders moved to BTC and started selling like crazy their alts in order to get some BTC ?

Part of the reason is there has been 200+ alt coins created, flooding the market. Not sure why people keep creating more and more coins. Shit coins at that.
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