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Topic: Wikipedia: "Some criticize Bitcoin for being a Ponzi scheme..." - page 3. (Read 8596 times)

legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1114
WalletScrutiny.com
To all those whining about the state of Wikipedia: It's free and open to anybody to fork it. In your fork you can try to get along without a hierarchy of admins. In fact I'm sure it could be done better but it gets me mad when open projects get bashing. Do it better. Please.

The thing is that Wikipedia seems mechanically fine. It's robust and it seems to be bug-free. The problem is that some of the people involved are -- how do I put it nicely -- misguided.

Is that really enough reason to start again? Maybe so, but without delving into and trying to resolve the "people bugs", it seems that a fork could be doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

If it's less work to fix the people than to fork the thing, fix the people but don't whine all over the internetz about how bad wikipedia is. Some Wikipedia admins are very religious about the rules and you can always get more admins into the edit war.
hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 532
Former curator of The Bitcoin Museum
Quote from:  Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
This article is protected until January 11, 2013

What the fuck?  I hope nothing happens in the world on Bitcoin for the next 2 months, or this article will be ALL FUCKED UP

o.0
legendary
Activity: 1227
Merit: 1000
Added my .02 on the wiki talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bitcoin#Please_add_a_correction_to_the_Ponzi_Scheme_accusation

Quote
The ECB report clearly does not see it as a Ponzi, since it does not promise any returns and even major project developers call it "an experiment" and "not an investment". At the very least, to comply with NPOV, the accusation of ponzi should be balanced by a mention of contrary arguments.
See: http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/virtualcurrencyschemes201210en.pdf
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
To all those whining about the state of Wikipedia: It's free and open to anybody to fork it. In your fork you can try to get along without a hierarchy of admins. In fact I'm sure it could be done better but it gets me mad when open projects get bashing. Do it better. Please.

Excellent post. Ironic and ultimately full of truth Smiley
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
To all those whining about the state of Wikipedia: It's free and open to anybody to fork it. In your fork you can try to get along without a hierarchy of admins. In fact I'm sure it could be done better but it gets me mad when open projects get bashing. Do it better. Please.

Ah, the standard "if you don't like it here, why don't you møøøøøøve".  Very handy to excuse anything that's wrong, from slavery to lies to rape.
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1114
WalletScrutiny.com
To all those whining about the state of Wikipedia: It's free and open to anybody to fork it. In your fork you can try to get along without a hierarchy of admins. In fact I'm sure it could be done better but it gets me mad when open projects get bashing. Do it better. Please.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Nagle was one of the guysthe guy shouting the loudest for a total crash of bitcoins valuation here on the forums last year.
He was absent since it went back up, now he is trolling you guys on wikipedia, successfully it seems since the sentence of concern is still there and kicking.

I knew that name sounded familiar.  I remember viewing his "algorithm" on Wikipedia last year and wondering "how does a computer scientist not seem to understand the definition of a ponzi scheme."

Selective ignorance.  Happens to the smartest of us all.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
Nagle was one of the guysthe guy shouting the loudest for a total crash of bitcoins valuation here on the forums last year.
He was absent since it went back up, now he is trolling you guys on wikipedia, successfully it seems since the sentence of concern is still there and kicking.

I knew that name sounded familiar.  I remember viewing his "algorithm" on Wikipedia last year and wondering "how does a computer scientist not seem to understand the definition of a ponzi scheme."

Nagle has literally built a reputation around predicting Bitcoin's near term demise.  It's his ego at stake here.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
Nagle was one of the guysthe guy shouting the loudest for a total crash of bitcoins valuation here on the forums last year.
He was absent since it went back up, now he is trolling you guys on wikipedia, successfully it seems since the sentence of concern is still there and kicking.

I knew that name sounded familiar.  I remember viewing his "algorithm" on Wikipedia last year and wondering "how does a computer scientist not seem to understand the definition of a ponzi scheme."
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP

But here comes the best part:
Quote
The Register article is particularly useful because it explains why Bitcoin has the characteristics of a Ponzi scheme. John Nagle (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like the Register simply plagiarised an earlier version of the Wikipedia entry! This is going to drag on for months! It looks like the Americans are really battling against the ECB report contagion Cheesy

No it's about who posted it, Nagle was one of the guysthe guy shouting the loudest for a total crash of bitcoins valuation here on the forums last year.
He was absent since it went back up, now he is trolling you guys on wikipedia, successfully it seems since the sentence of concern is still there and kicking.

And that is a hilarity of its own.  Smiley

LOL. Never heard of him. Wikipedia is a sinking ship and its creators have been unable (or unwilling) to fix systemic issues that have resulted in a power-grab by Fascists. It's quite painful to watch, especially since it held such promise.

However, I guess there are some advantages in Wikipedia's writhing -- millions of people are slowly learning about the insidious nature of power and corruption, and they will be smarter next time.

Perhaps Mr Nagle should become a US Marine? Grin

No, he is some self-proclaimed advisor, warning people of financial bubbles and their collapse. He runs http://www.downside.com

And IMO: The status quo on Wikipedia is just another instance of wide-spread ignorance rampant on the internet, here on bitcointalk we have it too... the other side of the coin.
I call it "Bitcoinism" - a couple of shenanigans that propose Bitcoin as the supreme ruler of all of Economics and Money for which the set up belief is that it is to assimilate the whole worlds economy by incremental "early adoption". THE CANCER of Bitcoin.
To be honest I don't blame people for beginning to think Bitcoin as a ponzi scheme. It's not inherently one, in a strict sense, but that attitude makes it into one.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP

But here comes the best part:
Quote
The Register article is particularly useful because it explains why Bitcoin has the characteristics of a Ponzi scheme. John Nagle (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like the Register simply plagiarised an earlier version of the Wikipedia entry! This is going to drag on for months! It looks like the Americans are really battling against the ECB report contagion Cheesy

No it's about who posted it, Nagle was one of the guysthe guy shouting the loudest for a total crash of bitcoins valuation here on the forums last year.
He was absent since it went back up, now he is trolling you guys on wikipedia, successfully it seems since the sentence of concern is still there and kicking.

And that is a hilarity of its own.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
"Some A few morons criticize have incorrectly accused Bitcoin for of being a Ponzi scheme because they don't know the definition of "Ponzi scheme" and/or lack even a rudimentary grasp of Bitcoin's basic principles..."

That seems like a reasonable compromise, no?
+1
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
Those comments from the ECB sum it up perfectly. And considering the authority of the ECB, it should be enough to totally debunk that accusation on the Wikipedia page.

That would, however, set a dangerous precedent.
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
"Some A few morons criticize have incorrectly accused Bitcoin for of being a Ponzi scheme because they don't know the definition of "Ponzi scheme" and/or lack even a rudimentary grasp of Bitcoin's basic principles..."

That seems like a reasonable compromise, no?

Amen.

And let's not forget: some people HAVE in fact criticised Obama for being a Muslim.

It's very important to register their silly allegations criticism in an encyclopaedia, whether or not it's factual. Cheesy

A Kenyan-born Muslim. Wink But seriously, that's a great comparison.  But oddly enough, neither of those "criticisms" found its way into Obama's wikipedia page.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
"Some A few morons criticize have incorrectly accused Bitcoin for of being a Ponzi scheme because they don't know the definition of "Ponzi scheme" and/or lack even a rudimentary grasp of Bitcoin's basic principles..."

That seems like a reasonable compromise, no?
legendary
Activity: 1536
Merit: 1000
electronic [r]evolution
Quote
Calling me "SudoDouche" and creating subpages on your websites attacking me doesn't do you any good
lol how did I know he would stumble upon that and get really mad. Rudd-O really took it a few steps too far though... haha.

But in all honestly it seems kind of stupid to have a Wiki page being edited according to the emotional state of some guy.
sr. member
Activity: 269
Merit: 250
SudoGhost is reading this thread, so I am going to address my reply directly to him.

I've been reading this discussion, and it should come as no surprise that when you attack and insult others like that they aren't exactly eager to help. Calling me "SudoDouche" and creating subpages on your websites attacking me doesn't do you any good; it works towards damaging the credibility you would have otherwise had and you're shooting yourself in the foot with that behavior. I say this in part because readers do occasionally visit the talk pages and will see these discussions and may impact how they view Bitcoin; when you resort to petty name-calling when you don't immediately get your way, you don't exactly make Bitcoin look like something used by a mature crowd that should be embraced and taken seriously.
This is just a general threat that you can't back up, I heard it in almost identical form on several completely unrelated forums where the word "Bitcoin" was replaced with something else to fit context.

As for the article and this talk page being locked, that has nothing to do with this discussion; you can thank HowardStrong for that one, he decided that he should vandalize the page (and that's pretty much one of the only diffs you can see, the rest inserted pornographic images and vulgarity on the page to the point that the diffs had to be revdel'd).
Not sure why you had to state the obvious.

With that said, I can see where "Some criticize Bitcoin for being a Ponzi scheme" can be assumed to have an issue. On the one hand, it is a factual sentence; there are sources that criticize it for this reason, that does not imply that it is a Ponzi scheme, that would be jumping to a conclusion not given by the text. It has been criticized for this, and that's something that is sourced, you can't "un-source" that; no matter what sources you present, it's going to somehow un-criticize Bitcoin, the criticisms are still there, it doesn't matter if you can "prove" with your personal logic and with sources that don't actually support your argument that it isn't one; you're disproving something not relevant.
The "Ponzi scheme" argument was born right after bubble collapse in June 2011, a lot of people lost there money and were very angry. I can list forum threads with literally thousands of post where word Ponzi appears in every second post. The argument was picked up by media in form of poorly combined articles, I can prove it by pinpointing incorrect statements in the article you referenced. The argument died down since then and no matter how much time you are going to spend looking for a more fresh reference you won't find one. Therefore I argue that the article you listed is not reliable source. To be more specific:

the developers who wrote the first bitcoin mining software probably paid themselves by having the first crack at generating bitcoins with almost no competition.
This is their only argument why Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, the word "probably" is a nice touch ascertain credibility.

Given the fact that there will still be demand for an anonymous currency transfer scheme and people will still want to gamble online and buy illicit drugs online, it’s quite possible that bitcoins (or some derivative technology) can survive after a massive bubble correction.
The article contradicts to itself, because by definition a Ponzi scheme can not recover after collapse.


On the other hand, that multiple Bitcoin enthusiasts have misread this sentence thereby repeating the same flawed arguments over and over does indicate that a clarification would help. Perhaps the statement can be clarified to read "Some criticize Bitcoin, accusing it of being a Ponzi scheme." or something similar. - SudoGhost 04:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[
Sure, but if you want to include such a controversial statement then you have to mention the opposite point of view e.g. ECB explains how Bitcoin does not fit the definition of Ponzi scheme and Coding in my sleep blog gives more detailed explanation.

If you have to infer it, then it doesn't "clearly" say it. Inferring a conclusion not given by the document is synthesis, and that's not sufficient. Especially if you're trying to say that the document says this, when it does not. - SudoGhost 03:53, 13 November 2012
That is incorrect, Wikipedia defines Synthesis as
If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.
It does not state or gives an example where a conclusion based on a single article is Synthesis. Moreover, to understand even a simple statement formed with a natural language a person has to apply "common sense" because it always has an ambiguity.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
Wikipedia has been a bad joke for a long time.  This is just more proof.

I like the way they fawn over anything "Andresen" is quoted as saying in the press, but when other developers are there actually arguing with them, they are dismissed.
legendary
Activity: 1536
Merit: 1000
electronic [r]evolution
I think SudoGhost makes a good and valid point, which is that some *have* criticized Bitcoin of being a ponzi. Though we as Bitcoin users may be offended by these comments, they are the publicly-stated opinions of some and must be acknowledged in this article.
The problem is that those opinions are factually incorrect, and yet the article lacks any refutation of those false opinions, and gives the impression those opinions are correct. That statement can stay there, as long as it's refuted with the truth.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I think SudoGhost makes a good and valid point, which is that some *have* criticized Bitcoin of being a ponzi. Though we as Bitcoin users may be offended by these comments, they are the publicly-stated opinions of some and must be acknowledged in this article.

I think the entire article stands as proof against such naysayers, so I would ask that everyone work together to improve the overall quality of the page, adding new info and images, updating references, and not waste your time squabbling over syntax in the Talk page. There are major sections of the article that need work, and I hope you can each look for ways to contribute in a positive and meaningful way, for the good of our publicity and image.

Cheers,
jtibble

See, that's the problem -- we can't work on improving the Wikipedia page because that cocksucker SudoGhost is cockblocking that.  If the page weren't cockblocked, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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