Will Bitcoins soon be outlawed everywhere if called a currency ? - page 2.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 06:29:14 PM

Some virtual/currency legal tidbits:

http://www.law.illinois.edu/bljournal/post/2007/09/21/When-Pretend-Money-Has-Real-Value-A-Study-of-Virtual-Property-in-Online-Gaming.aspx

http://maxkeiser.com/2011/05/12/utah%E2%80%99s-state-tax-code-now-considers-gold-and-silver-coins-issued-by-the-u-s-mint-as-currency-rather-than-an-asset/

http://kotaku.com/351906/real-money-transaction-lawsuit-gets-interesting-+-very-interesting

Can't find anything though declaring virtual currency illegal at the moment - except China's case.

So are you just trying to determine if a Senator COULD shut down the exchanges, like they want to do?

em3rgentOrdr

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youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin

Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 06:29:14 PM

Some virtual/currency legal tidbits:

http://www.law.illinois.edu/bljournal/post/2007/09/21/When-Pretend-Money-Has-Real-Value-A-Study-of-Virtual-Property-in-Online-Gaming.aspx

http://maxkeiser.com/2011/05/12/utah%E2%80%99s-state-tax-code-now-considers-gold-and-silver-coins-issued-by-the-u-s-mint-as-currency-rather-than-an-asset/

http://kotaku.com/351906/real-money-transaction-lawsuit-gets-interesting-+-very-interesting

Can't find anything though declaring virtual currency illegal at the moment - except China's case.

It's so perverse that numbers can be considered "illegal".

cloud9

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Some virtual/currency legal tidbits:

http://www.law.illinois.edu/bljournal/post/2007/09/21/When-Pretend-Money-Has-Real-Value-A-Study-of-Virtual-Property-in-Online-Gaming.aspx

http://maxkeiser.com/2011/05/12/utah%E2%80%99s-state-tax-code-now-considers-gold-and-silver-coins-issued-by-the-u-s-mint-as-currency-rather-than-an-asset/

http://kotaku.com/351906/real-money-transaction-lawsuit-gets-interesting-+-very-interesting

Can't find anything though declaring virtual currency illegal at the moment - except China's case.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 06:17:26 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on June 08, 2011, 06:11:56 PM

I don't understand why you are obsessed with not calling it a currency. You haven't showed us any of the laws you claim would make a non-backed currency illegal, and bitcoins are being used as a currency, so I don't see any reason to not call it a currency.

So on what grounds will a Senator be able to shut it down?
I hope none.

With legislation maybe like China did a few years ago with "Virtual Currency"? But can you do that to unique digital goods/commodity that has ownership and is transferable in a free market system?
It's certainly possible.

Some might say its untraceable? - Only if you launder it - that's illegal - not if you trade/barter a digital good/commodity?
This is true.

But seriously, what is the point of all of your questions? Are you trying to figure out whether bitcoins are legal? Or are you just arguing definitions for the sake of arguing definitions?

cloud9

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Quote from: Scientician! on June 08, 2011, 06:14:55 PM

Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 04:33:33 PM

tl;dr

What do you back the bitcoinzzzzz with?!??11? DERP

Goods and/or services whose value is mutually determined on a per-transaction basis?

Is Bitcoin as a digital commodity's medium of exchange value not reached through barter transactions in a free market system?

Does that make it a backed currency?

cloud9

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 08, 2011, 06:11:56 PM

I don't understand why you are obsessed with not calling it a currency. You haven't showed us any of the laws you claim would make a non-backed currency illegal, and bitcoins are being used as a currency, so I don't see any reason to not call it a currency.

So on what grounds will a Senator be able to shut it down?

With legislation maybe like China did a few years ago with "Virtual Currency"? But can you do that to unique digital goods/commodity that has ownership and is transferable in a free market system?

Some might say its untraceable? - Only if you launder it - that's illegal - not if you trade/barter a digital good/commodity?

Scientician!

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 04:33:33 PM

tl;dr

What do you back the bitcoinzzzzz with?!??11? DERP

Goods and/or services whose value is mutually determined on a per-transaction basis?

SgtSpike

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I don't understand why you are obsessed with not calling it a currency. You haven't showed us any of the laws you claim would make a non-backed currency illegal, and bitcoins are being used as a currency, so I don't see any reason to not call it a currency.

cloud9

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cloud9

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Quote from: benjamindees on June 08, 2011, 05:20:10 PM

Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 05:12:04 PM

If you sell / issue me a currency - certain expectations goes with it, isn't there a promise accompanying a currency, a promise to be upheld?

Really? What expectation? What promise?

Is it not used to be, that the value in silver/gold will be handed in exchange on presentation to the bearer?

cloud9

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 08, 2011, 05:20:41 PM

Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 04:33:33 PM

Can a Bitcoin site (bitcoin.org) decide individually whether to call Bitcoin a currency or not - because it has a decentralized nature?
Does it matter whether a site considers it a currency? If you consider it a currency, use it as one. Otherwise, don't.

Actually they consider it a commodity - very wisely I would say. Lucky for me I bought my commodity at their site. No misconceptions of any kind of intended promise were conveyed - it was a simple sales transaction and the secure accounting utility was transfered into my ownership. When I need to sell some secure accounting utilities at their site, I take it to the market place and the same message is portrayed.

benjamindees

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You haven't posted any definition of what you think a "currency" even is. You haven't posted any laws. Your claims fly in the face of reality since most currencies aren't actually backed by anything.

Your proposals wrt "accounting commodity" and "utility" have glaring holes in that no one actually guarantees any of these properties and in fact no one would ever be able to.

So while I think you aren't actually one of the DOJ trolls that frequent this forum, somehow you have managed to be worse, and make even less sense, and spew even more confusion and stupidity. Congratulations.

cloud9

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Quote from: SgtSpike on June 08, 2011, 05:27:28 PM

Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 05:26:21 PM

Wouldn't it be illegal in most parts of the world to issue currency backed by an empty promise?

If I bought an internet commodity however at MtGox, called Bitcoin, and it is known to have fairly secure properties as an accounting utility, wouln't that be legal in most parts of the world if I would like to exchange it for goods or services or to sell it?

Really bitcoin.org - see a lawyer about the "currency" thing please. Are you seeking cheap publicity. As you are definitely getting it. For now I will continue to barter my Bitcoin accounting utility which I have bought at MtGox and which I can sell at MtGox if someone wants to buy it or accept it in any barter exchange transaction at the fair market value attributed to my/your Bitcoin accounting utility. And please everybody - I declare that I am not giving you any currency through the process of our barter, buy or sell transactions.

Do show the applicable laws.

If there aren't any in the world (which I doubt), they can be made any day. You would need to go a long way to convince people that barter has suddenly turned illegal.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 05:26:21 PM

Wouldn't it be illegal in most parts of the world to issue currency backed by an empty promise?

If I bought an internet commodity however at MtGox, called Bitcoin, and it is known to have fairly secure properties as an accounting utility, wouln't that be legal in most parts of the world if I would like to exchange it for goods or services or to sell it?

Really bitcoin.org - see a lawyer about the "currency" thing please. Are you seeking cheap publicity. As you are definitely getting it. For now I will continue to barter my Bitcoin accounting utility which I have bought at MtGox and which I can sell at MtGox if someone wants to buy it or accept it in any barter exchange transaction at the fair market value attributed to my/your Bitcoin accounting utility. And please everybody - I declare that I am not giving you any currency through the process of our barter, buy or sell transactions.

Do show the applicable laws.

cloud9

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Wouldn't it be illegal in most parts of the world to issue currency backed by an empty promise?

If I bought an internet commodity however at MtGox, called Bitcoin, and it is known to have fairly secure properties as an accounting utility, wouln't that be legal in most parts of the world if I would like to exchange it for goods or services or to sell it?

Really bitcoin.org - see a lawyer about the "currency" thing please. Are you seeking cheap publicity. As you are definitely getting it. For now I will continue to barter my Bitcoin accounting utility which I have bought at MtGox and which I can sell at MtGox if someone wants to buy it or accept it in any barter exchange transaction at the fair market value attributed to my/your Bitcoin accounting utility. And respectfully everybody - I declare that I am not giving you any currency through the process of our barter, buy or sell transactions - but a Bitcoin secure accounting utility.

SgtSpike

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benjamindees

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 08, 2011, 05:12:04 PM

If you sell / issue me a currency - certain expectations goes with it, isn't there a promise accompanying a currency, a promise to be upheld?

Really? What expectation? What promise?

em3rgentOrdr

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youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin

Quote from: Timo Y on June 08, 2011, 05:06:40 PM

Semantics semantics. Yawn.

It's also called e-mail even though it isn't literally mail.

Who cares? Really?

Get your weapons ready, connect to google and wikipedia, ready your fingers on your keyboard, and prepare for INTERNET FORUM SEMANTICS BATTLE!!!

[Insert SEMANTICS argument below]

cloud9

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Quote from: Timo Y on June 08, 2011, 05:06:40 PM

Semantics semantics. Yawn.

It's also called e-mail even though it isn't literally mail.

Who cares? Really?

Semantics is what a court of law is all about. Books and books of it. If you sell / issue me a currency - certain expectations goes with it, isn't there a promise accompanying a currency, a promise to be upheld? If I barter a goat for your pig - that is where the transfer ends - just at that.

DATA COMMANDER

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Quote from: Timo Y on June 08, 2011, 05:06:40 PM

Semantics semantics. Yawn.

It's also called e-mail even though it isn't literally mail.

Who cares? Really?

/thread

Topic: Will Bitcoins soon be outlawed everywhere if called a currency ? - page 2. (Read 6568 times)