Will bition eventually deflate to oblivion? - page 2.

franky1

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Quote from: ATguy on December 15, 2015, 05:53:32 AM

Quote from: louisLavery on December 15, 2015, 03:31:11 AM

AIUI, fiat currencies tend to be inflated to oblivion. AISI, bitcoin is the symmetric opposite to fiat so will deflate to oblivion.

While there can be maximally only about 21 million Bitcoins, all these Bitcoins are released by mining over time. For the next century, still new Bitcoins will be distributed by mining, you can think about this slowly distribution as continuous inflation of available Bitcoins - now the real deflation of Bitcoin becomes only after more Bitcoins becomes lost than is mined over certain period.

no..
there are only 6 million coins left to mine.. this is not evenly distributed over the next 125 years (2140)
in 2016 there will only be 4 million coins left (dont knit pick exact numbering cant be arsed to quote numbers for a useless point)
2020 2million
2024 1 million
2028 half million

then the other 112 years is less and less and less..
meaning there is no inflation just deflation.. with a calculated supply limit spread over the 4 years

louisLavery

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I agree bitcoin isn't going to deflate to oblivion in my life time but it seems that's the way it'll go eventually unless it's replaced by something else or more coins are introduce (or released from dead wallets?). I certainly think decentralised currencies are here to stay, and hybrids will likely be invented soon.

I was also thinking, after my OP, if someone (maybe a state) wants to attack bitcoin it might be cheapest[1] to buy a load of bitcoin and freeze the wallets?

Sorry I you think I'm being negative and am attacking bitcoin but that's the best way to strengthen it, IMO. It's called critical thinking.

[1] I mean cheaper than buying a load of mining hardware to gain 51% control.

xuan87

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I think the possibility is quite low, if bitcoin already well known and being used globally, i dont think bitcoin will deflated to oblivion

some people will think a way to regenerate or create or do something to handle this problem

ATguy

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Quote from: louisLavery on December 15, 2015, 03:31:11 AM

AIUI, fiat currencies tend to be inflated to oblivion. AISI, bitcoin is the symmetric opposite to fiat so will deflate to oblivion.

While there can be maximally only about 21 million Bitcoins, all these Bitcoins are released by mining over time. For the next century, still new Bitcoins will be distributed by mining, you can think about this slowly distribution as continuous inflation of available Bitcoins - now the real deflation of Bitcoin becomes only after more Bitcoins becomes lost than is mined over certain period.

voztata

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Even in the price appreciation phase how you are able to think on bitcoin becoming oblivion. I do predict Paypal, western union such these type of services will become oblivion just because of bitcoin.

hunnaryb

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Only chance of that happening honestly is if the government steps in and uses their power to take over the network. Of course, they also have the ability to make it progressively difficult to operate Bitcoin legally.

franky1

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Quote from: Rizky Aditya on December 15, 2015, 03:59:55 AM

Do you guys really think that the price of Bitcoin will go this high? Or are you just saying this stuff pretty lightly and figuratively.

at the moment, figuratively.

because the units of measure are not the problem. but transactions per second is..

at the moment its estimated that people using fiat, make 42 transactions a month via various methods(visa, wire transfer, cash).
bitcoin can only handle 2000 tx every 10 minutes (8640000 a month)
which if everyone in bitcoin right now were to use bitcoin alone.. for proper daily living stuff, to pay bills and buy food each day (the 42tx a month average)
bitcoin could only right now cope with 205714 peoples daily usage.

which if those people put their average life savings (stats: $45k) the total bitcoin market cap would be just
$9,257,142,857.

so unless transactions per second increase for daily use. it will limit people wanting to put their life savings in bitcoin, because they cant use it due to bottlenecking..

until transactions per second is increased, the majority of bitcoiners will just use it as a investment hoard. doing maybe 2 tx a month average
allowing for 4 million people to make tx's smoothly

Mickeyb

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Move On !!!!!!

Quote from: Rizky Aditya on December 15, 2015, 03:59:55 AM

Quote from: franky1 on December 15, 2015, 03:58:01 AM

Quote from: Amph on December 15, 2015, 03:50:30 AM

then when i need to move 1 satoshi there will be the need to add another decimal, then what if i want to spend that decimal as the new minimu spending, which would be 1/10 of a satoshi?

you see where i'm going

if bitcoin grows into a $2 quadrillion currency.. the year would be long after your death. and yea its easy to add more decimals into the protocol..

but for now even a $20 trillion currency is something that people dont need to worry about any time soon.. and that allows 'bit's to be used.

so relax.. bitcoin is not going to grow and surpass $20 trillion any time soon.

the more worrying thing to be thinking about is how bitcoin can handle the transaction volume of 500million people (by that i mean bandwidth and databloat, not units of measure)

Do you guys really think that the price of Bitcoin will go this high? Or are you just saying this stuff pretty lightly and figuratively.

I am sure that Bitcoin has a potential to go this high! Now, will this really happen, that depends from too many factors to say it surely at this moment.

I know that I am ready to take a chance with Bitcoin on this really happening! I don't want to feel like an idiot in 10 years time on missing out the revolution!

franky1

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Quote from: Amph on December 15, 2015, 04:00:01 AM

yeah i know it's not a problem, just for the sake of making an argument, because no matter how many decimal they add, if i want to use the smallest available, there will be always this problem

i think they must separate fee in the future(very distant future i know) to avoid this issue, via sidechain maybe or in another new way

there wont be a problem as the solution will be available before it becomes a problem.

and as for separating fee's, there is a secret.. miners are already getting funds secretly via other coins..
its called "merge mining" and has been around for a few years now.. but mining pools wont admit it individual miners because they want to hoard them coins and not hand them out to individual miners.

but as you say when side chains (different to merge mining) happen then individual miners can grab extra coins from other chains

Amph

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Quote from: franky1 on December 15, 2015, 03:58:01 AM

Quote from: Amph on December 15, 2015, 03:50:30 AM

then when i need to move 1 satoshi there will be the need to add another decimal, then what if i want to spend that decimal as the new minimu spending, which would be 1/10 of a satoshi?

you see where i'm going

if bitcoin grows into a $2 quadrillion currency.. the year would be long after your death. and yea its easy to add more decimals into the protocol..

but for now even a $20 trillion currency is something that people dont need to worry about any time soon.. and that allows 'bit's to be used.

so relax.. bitcoin is not going to grow and surpass $20 trillion any time soon.

the more worrying thing to be thinking about is how bitcoin can handle the transaction volume of 500million people (by that i mean bandwidth and databloat, not units of measure)

yeah i know it's not a problem, just for the sake of making an argument, because no matter how many decimal they add, if i want to use the smallest available, there will be always this problem

i think they must separate fee in the future(very distant future i know) to avoid this issue, via sidechain maybe or in another new way

Rizky Aditya

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Quote from: franky1 on December 15, 2015, 03:58:01 AM

Quote from: Amph on December 15, 2015, 03:50:30 AM

then when i need to move 1 satoshi there will be the need to add another decimal, then what if i want to spend that decimal as the new minimu spending, which would be 1/10 of a satoshi?

you see where i'm going

if bitcoin grows into a $2 quadrillion currency.. the year would be long after your death. and yea its easy to add more decimals into the protocol..

but for now even a $20 trillion currency is something that people dont need to worry about any time soon.. and that allows 'bit's to be used.

so relax.. bitcoin is not going to grow and surpass $20 trillion any time soon.

the more worrying thing to be thinking about is how bitcoin can handle the transaction volume of 500million people (by that i mean bandwidth and databloat, not units of measure)

Do you guys really think that the price of Bitcoin will go this high? Or are you just saying this stuff pretty lightly and figuratively.

franky1

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Quote from: Amph on December 15, 2015, 03:50:30 AM

then when i need to move 1 satoshi there will be the need to add another decimal, then what if i want to spend that decimal as the new minimu spending, which would be 1/10 of a satoshi?

you see where i'm going

if bitcoin grows into a $2 quadrillion currency.. the year would be long after your death. and yea its easy to add more decimals into the protocol..

but for now even a $20 trillion currency is something that people dont need to worry about any time soon.. and that allows 'bit's to be used.

so relax.. bitcoin is not going to grow and surpass $20 trillion any time soon.

the more worrying thing to be thinking about is how bitcoin can handle the transaction volume of 500million people (by that i mean bandwidth and databloat, not units of measure)

Amph

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Quote from: franky1 on December 15, 2015, 03:48:28 AM

Quote from: Amph on December 15, 2015, 03:43:49 AM

moving one satoshi it's harder because of fee, so they should hard fork the client to add this option in the future if we can really sustain those awesoem value in the future

because spending one satoshi by paying 10k satoshi in fee would look at least stupid...

your worrying over nothing.. this has already been thought about years ago and will happen when its appropriate to do so. EG bitcoins stays above $1000 the fee will move from 0.0001000 to 0.0000100

then when bitcoin stays above $10,000 value 0.00000010
then when bitcoin stays above $100,000 value 0.00000001

keeping the fee below 10c

then when i need to move 1 satoshi there will be the need to add another decimal, then what if i want to spend that decimal as the new minimum of spending, which would be 1/10 of a satoshi?

you see where i'm going

LiteCoinGuy

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In Satoshi I Trust

Quote from: louisLavery on December 15, 2015, 03:31:11 AM

AIUI, fiat currencies tend to be inflated to oblivion. AISI, bitcoin is the symmetric opposite to fiat so will deflate to oblivion.

There are already a fair few bitcoins 'lost' in wallets to which no one has the private key. This can only increase with time and lead to fewer and fewer bitcoins in circulation and thus deflation. Eventually so few will be in circulation that it'll be impractical as a currency.

even if there would be only 1 mio bitcoin, it would be no problem.

franky1

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Quote from: Amph on December 15, 2015, 03:43:49 AM

moving one satoshi it's harder because of fee, so they should hard fork the client to add this option in the future if we can really sustain those awesoem value in the future

because spending one satoshi by paying 10k satoshi in fee would look at least stupid...

your worrying over nothing.. this has already been thought about years ago and will happen when its appropriate to do so. EG

it already happened when prices moved over $100

and when bitcoin stays above $1000 the fee will move from 0.0001000 to 0.0000100

then when bitcoin stays above $10,000 value 0.00000010
then when bitcoin stays above $100,000 value 0.00000001

keeping the fee below 10c

justspare

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Quote from: louisLavery on December 15, 2015, 03:31:11 AM

AIUI, fiat currencies tend to be inflated to oblivion. AISI, bitcoin is the symmetric opposite to fiat so will deflate to oblivion.

There are already a fair few bitcoins 'lost' in wallets to which no one has the private key. This can only increase with time and lead to fewer and fewer bitcoins in circulation and thus deflation. Eventually so few will be in circulation that it'll be impractical as a currency.

If you lose your wallet, that is your fault. You were stupid enough to lose it, most people aren't dumb enough to lose their wallets so there will still be a lot of Bitcoins in circulation.

Amph

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Quote from: franky1 on December 15, 2015, 03:40:40 AM

Quote from: louisLavery on December 15, 2015, 03:31:11 AM

AIUI, fiat currencies tend to be inflated to oblivion. AISI, bitcoin is the symmetric opposite to fiat so will deflate to oblivion.

There are already a fair few bitcoins 'lost' in wallets to which no one has the private key. This can only increase with time and lead to fewer and fewer bitcoins in circulation and thus deflation. Eventually so few will be in circulation that it'll be impractical as a currency.

moving 1 satoshi (0.00000001) is just as easy as moving one bitcoin (1.00000000).

say 1million coins are lost to oblivion.
that still leaves
2,000,000,000,000,000 potential satoshi's to be useful... 2 quadrillion

even if we measure bitcoins in 'bits' 0.00000100 due to deflation there are 20 trillion 'bits', which still allows 2 decimal places to be used as 'cent' measures

moving one satoshi it's harder because of fee, so they should hard fork the client to add this option in the future if we can really sustain those awesoem value in the future

because spending one satoshi by paying 10k satoshi in fee would look at least stupid...

franky1

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Quote from: louisLavery on December 15, 2015, 03:31:11 AM

AIUI, fiat currencies tend to be inflated to oblivion. AISI, bitcoin is the symmetric opposite to fiat so will deflate to oblivion.

There are already a fair few bitcoins 'lost' in wallets to which no one has the private key. This can only increase with time and lead to fewer and fewer bitcoins in circulation and thus deflation. Eventually so few will be in circulation that it'll be impractical as a currency.

moving 1 satoshi (0.00000001) is just as easy as moving one bitcoin (1.00000000).

say 1million coins are lost to oblivion.
that still leaves
2,000,000,000,000,000 potential satoshi's to be useful... 2 quadrillion

even if we measure bitcoins in 'bits' 0.00000100 due to deflation there are 20 trillion 'bits', which still allows 2 decimal places to be used as 'cent' measures

its just like saying there are only 175000 tonnes of gold and 10,000 tonnes could have been lost due to many things.. yet there are many many many grams, ounces of gold still in circulation

louisLavery

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AIUI, fiat currencies tend to be inflated to oblivion. AISI, bitcoin is the symmetric opposite to fiat so will deflate to oblivion.

There are already a fair few bitcoins 'lost' in wallets to which no one has the private key. This can only increase with time and lead to fewer and fewer bitcoins in circulation and thus deflation. Eventually so few will be in circulation that it'll be impractical as a currency.

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