Will Mt. Gox US Bank accounts eventually get frozen?

asdf

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Quote from: lemonginger on June 08, 2011, 03:23:47 PM

Quote from: lemonginger on June 06, 2011, 01:16:03 PM

Growing pains. That's all. Can't stop a peer-to-peer service.

--

Chicago Tribune today:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-rt-us-financial-bitcoitre7573t3-20110608,0,6328122.story
One user described this process as simply "growing pains" and asserted that the government "can't stop a peer-to-peer service."

--

Sweet, I made the paper Wink

lol, awesome dude!

epi 1:10,000

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Quote from: unk on June 08, 2011, 12:03:44 PM

as i pointed out, the analyst using the name 'computerscientist' pointed this out a long time ago and suggested a significant risk even for individuals using money to transfer to an unregistered 'financial exchange' that law-enforcement agencies implicate in money-laundering efforts:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1090435/?start=192

Quote

Speaking generally, though, individual users of these exchanges risk having their assets and accounts frozen, risk running afoul of money-laundering laws, and generally risk losing even more than they put into the system.

this panned out when i asked financial colleagues who were concerned about the matter, and i posted that concern here but was roundly criticised for doing so. i still think it's a concern, and it's one of the reasons i haven't sold my pile of bitcoins from early mining at these prices. (the others are mostly ethical.)

Thx for the link Unk. That certainly helped to illuminate some of the potential legal problems that I was unaware of. I would certainly suggest others reed the post for further information. It was my impression that Mtgox was doing its due diligence to try to comply with the law but if computerscientist claims are true will they ever be able to satisfactorily comply with U.S. and/or regional laws? Does anyone have any more info/links in layman's language from reputable sources on potential legal statutes that would help define a legal exchange as it relates to bitcoin?

fornit

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i think the market needs a lot more competitors. right now, if mtgox loses its ability to pay in us dollars, it would suffer a lot. in turn, the whole market suffers a lot. so mtgox needs more withdrawal options and the market as a whole needs more mtgoxes.
if you havent, take a look at tradehill (link in signature). i think it might be a very good alternative with its many payout options and lower fees. of cause, two exchanges still wont cut it, put its certainly better than just one.

bitdragon

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peace

Quote from: bit691207 on June 09, 2011, 08:33:46 AM

Quote from: S3052 on June 06, 2011, 02:25:30 AM

I thought MtGox is now located in Japan.

Do they have an US account?

MtGox seems to be located in France. I just sent EUR to MtGox and the bank account information they gave me for that purpose refers to a French Bank account:

Bank details:
Account Owner: MACARAJA SAS
Bank Name: CIC
BIC: CMCIFRPP
IBAN: FR76 3006 6109 7100 0200 1720 142
Address: 9 avenue Pierre Sangnier / 94350 Villiers sur marne / France

That account is only for Euro deposits and these deposits do seem indeed to be handled in France. But Mtgox is managed in Japan.

Quote

Wouldn't that be ironic...that a crackdown on bitcoin by governments actually stimulated bartering in bitcoin.

That is the wonders of censoring something. Over the last years, my stance on censoring has greatly changed. The more the cabal tries to crack down on something, the more and greater the innovation. They are doomed no matter what, and we get some bumps on the road.

bit691207

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Quote from: S3052 on June 06, 2011, 02:25:30 AM

I thought MtGox is now located in Japan.

Do they have an US account?

MtGox seems to be located in France. I just sent EUR to MtGox and the bank account information they gave me for that purpose refers to a French Bank account:

Bank details:
Account Owner: MACARAJA SAS
Bank Name: CIC
BIC: CMCIFRPP
IBAN: FR76 3006 6109 7100 0200 1720 142
Address: 9 avenue Pierre Sangnier / 94350 Villiers sur marne / France

Steve

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Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 03:23:05 AM

Here's a possible scenario:

Mt.Gox US bank account frozen.
Rush of people to get out any way they can; like say: buying bitcoins, moving them to a new exchange and converting back to dollars there
That would require a willing buyer of dollars. If I were wealthy, I might judge that the chance of the bank account eventually becoming unfrozen was 50:50. So I offer 49 cents on the dollar to sell bitcoins to those desperate souls.
Their money is unlocked (since the bitcoin accounts cannot be frozen), and I have an investment.

Choose your figures to taste.

The market always provides a solution when it's free to trade; and Bitcoins make it impossible to stop trade.

Wouldn't that be ironic...that a crackdown on bitcoin by governments actually stimulated bartering in bitcoin.

CoinMonster

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 03:41:32 PM

Quote from: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 03:35:44 PM

Can't even paypal be used for laundering? If Sam buys socks for John, and John buys drugs for Sam at Silk Road by paying Silk Road's Skype account, haven't they just been laundering paypal credit? Should paypal be banned if it enables people to buy drugs anonymously? Or should paypal credit laundering be banned?

How is there a connection between Sam and John on paypal? If Sam paid socks - and it's proxy delivered to John how does paypal know about the connection between Sam and John? If John pays for a Skype number's credit and hand the password to Silk Road and Silk Road delivers drugs to Sam, how does paypal know about the connection between Silk Road and Sam?

Isn't the problem with laundering bitcoins, and not with bitcoins?

Have you written a single sentence on this forum that did not end in a question mark?

lemonginger

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Quote from: lemonginger on June 06, 2011, 01:16:03 PM

Growing pains. That's all. Can't stop a peer-to-peer service.

--

Chicago Tribune today:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-rt-us-financial-bitcoitre7573t3-20110608,0,6328122.story
One user described this process as simply "growing pains" and asserted that the government "can't stop a peer-to-peer service."

--

Sweet, I made the paper Wink

Freakin

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Quote from: error on June 06, 2011, 08:53:08 PM

Hell, MtGox could just start issuing Visa debit cards. Only have BTC in your account? Using the card causes an immediate sell order on the backend, and your merchant gets USD or whatever.

they're working on it...

unk

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as i pointed out, the analyst using the name 'computerscientist' pointed this out a long time ago and suggested a significant risk even for individuals using money to transfer to an unregistered 'financial exchange' that law-enforcement agencies implicate in money-laundering efforts:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1090435/?start=192

Quote

Speaking generally, though, individual users of these exchanges risk having their assets and accounts frozen, risk running afoul of money-laundering laws, and generally risk losing even more than they put into the system.

this panned out when i asked financial colleagues who were concerned about the matter, and i posted that concern here but was roundly criticised for doing so. i still think it's a concern, and it's one of the reasons i haven't sold my pile of bitcoins from early mining at these prices. (the others are mostly ethical.)

beastY

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Quote from: grimm on June 04, 2011, 02:05:28 PM

Are we there already?:

"... and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark ... "

Its a quote from a famous book. Don't think its talking about the German Deutch mark ?

Or have we already been there all along?

Is Bitcoin a threat to freedom of commerce medium, or is it providing wider medium choice?

gene

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Bitcoin is the target. One obvious hint is that it hasn't been mentioned by name in Schumer's pressers. It is referred to as a means of laudering money (ie the demonic other).

This is a race. Either the bitcoin community realizes that the PR race is real (where bitcoin is quickly falling behind) and gets its act together, or bitcoin will be marginalized and crushed (via technical attacks to the network, if necessary), along with other similar technologies.

The community would be well advised to understand that bitcoin can still easily lose this race.

realnowhereman

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Here's a possible scenario:

Mt.Gox US bank account frozen.
Rush of people to get out any way they can; like say: buying bitcoins, moving them to a new exchange and converting back to dollars there
That would require a willing buyer of dollars. If I were wealthy, I might judge that the chance of the bank account eventually becoming unfrozen was 50:50. So I offer 49 cents on the dollar to sell bitcoins to those desperate souls.
Their money is unlocked (since the bitcoin accounts cannot be frozen), and I have an investment.

Choose your figures to taste.

The market always provides a solution when it's free to trade; and Bitcoins make it impossible to stop trade.

alkor

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 01:20:45 PM

Are you not jumping to conclusions?

Isn't Silk Road (not Bitcoin Huh

) the illegal business called for to be shut down?

I think it is quite obvious that they are using Silk Road as an excuse to go after Bitcoin. The real target here is Bitcoin, and not Silk Road.

gigitrix

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 01:20:45 PM

Are you not jumping to conclusions?

Isn't Silk Road (not Bitcoin Huh

) the illegal business called for to be shut down?

Given the technologies used, it is unlikely that this is possible. Therefore it is reasonable (but by no means a certainty) to assume that the US government will "lash out", restricting the flow in any way it can. I personally don't think it will come to that but it's very very possible, especially once bitcoins are implicated more publicly in child pornography and the like.

error

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Hell, MtGox could just start issuing Visa debit cards. Only have BTC in your account? Using the card causes an immediate sell order on the backend, and your merchant gets USD or whatever.

cloud9

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Quote from: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 03:35:44 PM

Can't even paypal be used for laundering? If Sam buys socks for John, and John buys drugs for Sam at Silk Road by paying Silk Road's Skype account, haven't they just been laundering paypal credit? Should paypal be banned if it enables people to buy drugs anonymously? Or should paypal credit laundering be banned?

How is there a connection between Sam and John on paypal? If Sam paid socks - and it's proxy delivered to John how does paypal know about the connection between Sam and John? If John pays for a Skype number's credit and hand the password to Silk Road and Silk Road delivers drugs to Sam, how does paypal know about the connection between Silk Road and Sam?

Isn't the problem with laundering bitcoins, and not with bitcoins?

rebuilder

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I think anyone operating an exchange, especially with their real names on the line, is much braver than I am. As far as Mt Gox goes, given how seriously they seem to be taking their business and expansion, I can't imagine they haven't considered their options in case of government interference.

cloud9

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Quote from: Steve on June 06, 2011, 01:42:13 AM

I'm not meaning to spread any fear about mtgox, I love the service...but this has to be on peoples' minds (especially considering Schumer's presser).

Are you not jumping to conclusions?

Isn't Silk Road (not Bitcoin Huh

) the illegal business called for to be shut down? Is a person not within his rights when he trades freely for a pair of cryptographic keys of which one is publicly recognizable? Is money (cash) laundering or another medium of exchange laundering (bitcoins) not a willful act? Is Bitcoin laundering part of the standard system / bitcoin client? Or do you need to be willfully laundering Bitcoins? Wouldn't it do Bitcoin's reputation good if authorities can get to Silk Road using the Bitcoin blockchain in their investigation? Just one misstep somewhere? Will it not be an easier investigation than tracking conventional cash transactions? If investigators ask questions, will you not be required to just prove where you got your Bitcoins from? If you did not get them from bitcoin laundering, and you bought/trade them for legitimate goods/services/other and can prove it, are you not on the right side of the law? Wouldn't you just begin your investigation at sites like this http://bitcoinlaundry.com/ (and connect the dots) ?

Quote from: alkor on June 06, 2011, 12:10:59 PM

Bitcoin just appeared on Al Jazeera:
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/americas/2011/06/20116655012909169.html

Quote

Two US senators are asking federal authorities to crack down on an online narcotics market that accepts 'virtual' currency.

The 'Dark Web', an anonymous and secretive online community that trades in heroin, cocaine and methamphetamines among other drugs, has been operating unhindered for months.

The two senators have written to the US Justice Department and Drug Enforcement Administration asking them to shut down and investigate the site.

Al Jazeera's John Terrett reports.

lemonginger

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Quote from: Horkabork on June 06, 2011, 02:27:43 AM

Mt. Gox isn't going to get closed by the US government. At most if for some outlandish reason, transfers to and from Dwolla and bank accounts gets spanked, then this will be like poker websites

yes, there's so many poker websites currently functional for US customers. No funds frozen or anything.

also, unlike poker, the US isn't the only country that will likely fight back against what they see as a money-laundering scheme. I would expect that before too long (within a year) there will be some exchanges effectively shut down and possibly some other ones that just take the money and disappear into cyberspace.

Growing pains. That's all. Can't stop a peer-to-peer service.

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