Wind Power Has A Profitability Problem

Casdinyard

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Quote from: be.open on May 04, 2023, 04:23:11 AM

Meanwhile, a very strange paradox has emerged in the US wind energy market:

Quote

The wind energy market is stuck in this very strange paradox right now. We have the best long-term climate policy certainty ever, across all the largest markets, but we’re struggling through a period where the whole industry, particularly the supply chain, has been hit by issues that have culminated in destroying profit margins and running many of the top OEMs [original equipment manufacturers] and their component vendors into negative profitability territory.

Negative profitability territory is a more politically correct designation for the billion-dollar losses that the US wind power giants have been suffering for several years, despite the political importance of the climate change agenda and generous government subsidies in the campaign to eliminate dependence on fossil fuels.

What I’m seeing is a colossal market failure.

Against the backdrop of growing economic problems in the United States, this green environmental movement is becoming more and more like a large-scale scam to develop budget funds for an initially economically unviable idea.

Share your opinion on this matter.

Isn't this kind of expected? Heard that it would take the US around a couple trillion dollars to convert every coal power plant into sustainable renewable energy sources (didn't say if it was strictly wind but it for sure doesn't) but after four years of negative profit they're bound to make x5 of that money they made. And while 5 years is definitely a massive risk to take isn't that like a better option to take than say, sticking with the current paradigm and inadvertently causing the planet's destruction?

Like at this point what does it matter if they lose money in the short-term, they're already billionaire conglomerates anyway, and if they can't make that much money to start off the journey there's always the top 10 richest people to support this, at this point I don't even care if they monopolize the renewable energy source industry, as long as it ensures that we're actually looking at a future that is not polluted I'll take those odds.

uneng

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I suppose the main problem are the batteries, right? The off-grid system. It's indeed a big issue not only for wind power generation, but for every renewable sources of energy systems. The batteries are expensive and only last for few years. On the other hand, the on-grid system seems very profitable. You just have to make sure you can supply someone with the energy you are producing in real time.

And there is so much demand for energy. In many places there are blackouts and rationing due to energy shortage, so even the government needs this partnership with autonomous green energy providers in order to keep the population supplied.

Another issue I see with wind energy generation is that it's more restricted than solar one regards implementation. You have to be very careful where to implement it. If you aren't certain the area has continous flux of wind in large scale during the whole year, it's not a good idea.

Fortify

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Quote from: be.open on May 04, 2023, 04:23:11 AM

Meanwhile, a very strange paradox has emerged in the US wind energy market:

Quote

The wind energy market is stuck in this very strange paradox right now. We have the best long-term climate policy certainty ever, across all the largest markets, but we’re struggling through a period where the whole industry, particularly the supply chain, has been hit by issues that have culminated in destroying profit margins and running many of the top OEMs [original equipment manufacturers] and their component vendors into negative profitability territory.

Negative profitability territory is a more politically correct designation for the billion-dollar losses that the US wind power giants have been suffering for several years, despite the political importance of the climate change agenda and generous government subsidies in the campaign to eliminate dependence on fossil fuels.

Against the backdrop of growing economic problems in the United States, this green environmental movement is becoming more and more like a large-scale scam to develop budget funds for an initially economically unviable idea.

Share your opinion on this matter.

It's a bit dumb to call the green movement a "scam" and shows how naive you are when it comes to future planning. Ultimately fossil fuels are finite and will eventually get more expensive to extract. Some companies that are pioneering green technologies will undoubtedly make poor financial decisions or be caught out in the shorter term, as it is still a relatively new area to be developing. Countries like Saudi Arabia both want to suppress these sort of competitors so will play games to knock out alternative energy sources, then jack up prices, but they'll also buy them up as they have massive amounts of investment funds to utilize. China is currently investing massively in this sort of energy independence, but you simply cannot rely on a single source and must aim for a large variety that will ultimately be supplemented by something like nuclear power too. Picking on wind farms as if they alone are the answer is an incredibly blinkered and false narrative to pedal. I see you moan about people creating new energy generation, without giving any alternative solutions yourself.

kryptqnick

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The USA is still very far from meaningfully moving toward renewable energy. Natural gas, petroleum, and coal account for 79% of all energy consumption in this country as of 2022. Then 8% is nuclear, and renewable energy is just 13%. Out of those 13%, wind is the largest (at 29%). I'm surprised that it's not solar, especially considering climate change and subsequently so much heat. Maybe it's something that could be developed better in the US to increase the share of renewable energy.
With wind, it seems that the demand is high, but there are supply chain issues. Perhaps it's not the right way for the US, or maybe scaling up can actually help reduce the cost. In any case, that doesn't mean that fighting climate change isn't important.

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Quote from: Myleschetty on May 05, 2023, 02:55:31 PM

In this 21st century, I don't think the idea of Wind power is something people should consider when there are the best alternatives like solar power not to mention the drawback of the noise pollution that the wind turbines will generate noise which raises concern for residents living close to the turbines another is the wind speeds will also vary at some point.

It must be taken into account that governments began to think seriously about the use of alternative energy sources only a few decades ago. Therefore, we are essentially at the beginning of this path. It is still very early to talk about the shortcomings of wind generators, since they continue to improve rapidly.

For example, I recently read another article about how Flower Turbines, a company based in the USA and the Netherlands, has come up with its own version of wind energy in the “eco-art” style - silent wind turbines in the shape of tulips.
According to the company, the turbines do not pose a danger to birds and animals, especially in urban environments, and create minimal low-frequency noise inaudible to humans.
https://building-tech.org/%D0%AD%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%8F/besshumnie-vetryanie-turbyni-v-forme-tyulpanov -sozdani-dlya-virabotky-elektroenergyy-v-gorodakh-

Surely many more similar inventions will appear; alternative sources of clean energy will be very diverse, effective and quite cheap compared to current fossil energy sources.

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I think the green movement is also not much different from green energy which used to be quite popular but none of them really made it to the success of making bitcoin energy efficient or environmentally friendly. it's all just bullshit voiced only they want to take advantage of people's investment in projects with bullshit. forget it, even now there are no projects with "green energy".

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Quote from: spectre71 on May 07, 2023, 10:32:56 AM

Lot's of morons in here. Wind is a shit source of energy. You can't schedule it and it's often produced when unneeded and the power has to be dumped. Sure it seems cool when your using other peoples money.

Solar, problem is it's unavailable during peek demand.

If someone says batteries they get a throat punch.

Nuclear power is the only way. 24/7/365 100%

Governments are doing absolutely the right thing by betting on alternative energy sources that do not pollute the environment and do not pose a serious danger to others. It should be taken into account that we are at the stage of dramatic climate change, which will be accompanied by large and powerful natural disasters, which is very dangerous for Nuclear Power Plants. We can see this in the example of the accident at the Japanese nuclear power plant "Fukushima-1". Each nuclear power plant is, in fact, a nuclear bomb inside the country, which, for various reasons, can be activated.
In my opinion, it is better to pay more attention to solar panels, which continue to improve and become cheaper.

macson

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Quote from: Doan9269 on May 04, 2023, 07:31:10 AM

People are still making the use of wind power supply but you can't compare the percentage of its output and utilization to that in hydroelectric power supply, solar and any other renewable means of power supply such bio gas organic power supply and many more, the capacity to which all these could provide us individuals is vert little compared to an industrial application which more demands for power, this makes it more common today that the best in use is with the hydroelectric power supply, wind power supply probably could be applicable in some certain levels on research purposes or where the demand in limited to high voltage supply.

for the maintenance costs incurred, hydro energy is said to have a greater cost than wind energy but there is something even cheaper, that is solar energy;

Quote

The energy the earth absorbs from the sun in just 1 hour is enough to power the planet for a year. Why, then, is the world not taking greater advantage of this renewable energy source?

Fossil fuel infrastructure is well-established and difficult to phase out. On top of that, humans have only recently managed to harness the sun’s energy in a way that is also efficient, scalable, and relatively affordable. About 80% of the world’s energy still comes from fossil fuels like oil, coal, and natural gas.

Solar energy capacity in the United States is made up of large- and small-scale systems. Solar energy at utility scale — large facilities that generate at least 1 megawatt of power for the grid — represents the largest solar market in the U.S. The second largest market is residential, followed by commercial and community.

[1] https://www.rocketsolar.com/learn/energy-efficiency/how-cost-solar-panels-has-fallen

is still a complicated issue, why does the U.S. Govt focus on ^(renewable) wind energy whereas based on data and facts, it will only make them pay more than other renewable energy developments.

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Quote from: be.open on May 04, 2023, 04:23:11 AM

Meanwhile, a very strange paradox has emerged in the US wind energy market:

Quote

The wind energy market is stuck in this very strange paradox right now. We have the best long-term climate policy certainty ever, across all the largest markets, but we’re struggling through a period where the whole industry, particularly the supply chain, has been hit by issues that have culminated in destroying profit margins and running many of the top OEMs [original equipment manufacturers] and their component vendors into negative profitability territory.

Negative profitability territory is a more politically correct designation for the billion-dollar losses that the US wind power giants have been suffering for several years, despite the political importance of the climate change agenda and generous government subsidies in the campaign to eliminate dependence on fossil fuels.

What I’m seeing is a colossal market failure.

Against the backdrop of growing economic problems in the United States, this green environmental movement is becoming more and more like a large-scale scam to develop budget funds for an initially economically unviable idea.

Share your opinion on this matter.

Profitability of green energy and wind energy in particular depends on many factors: like location for example. In some places if can be profitable in other not so much. Flat or almost flat countries with access to the sea/ocean have more chances in becoming profitable in wind energy.

It is also possible, that wind park operators are heavily investing in new wind turbines which are known to be ridiculously expensive. So, if you're running a wind energy park of say 100 turbines and buy/install 10 more you're suffering losses and in most countries you don't have to pay taxes but it doesn't mean your business in not profitable.

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 04, 2023, 05:17:28 AM

Are people using this wind power still? There must be enough wind to get the exact result they wished for.

I have never liked this wind power of a thing right from the day one when I was trying to build my first set of mining rigs, years ago some of my friend advised me to use wind power and from my own research I've got to know that the negative impacts on wind power is the climate change, you have to make sure that you're getting a lot of wind in your area before setting up a wind power.

The disadvantage is too high and I don't like it and from my own area I think that using the energy from the sun is far more better than using wind power I have some friends outside country in United State of America from Texas and I hear that it's a good place to set up a wind power generator, because it's always windy.

Enough wind yes, enough equipment to get around and actually make it sustainable? No.

Which is also why it's a failing industry as we speak. Demand is so unrealistically low despite the fact that it's one of the most safest and most efficient energy resource out there by space covered alone. Sure you could argue that solar energy is more efficient and I would say it is but compared to wind energy it is far more underdeveloped for some reason. Feels like someone is actively undermining the progress to capitalize on the profit that fossil fuels and other non-renewable sources of energy provides, but I digress.

There has to be some way we could efficiently rally the use of more renewable choices over their more dangerous counterparts. We're running on borrowed time and if things don't get better until 2030-2050 we're fucked royally.

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Quote from: spectre71 on May 07, 2023, 10:32:56 AM

Nuclear power is the only way. 24/7/365 100%

No energy source is perfect, not even nuclear power. The benefits of economic activity may be good, but the harm is no less than an exploding nuclear bomb. For example, in the earthquake and tsunami that caused a serious nuclear disaster in Japan in 2011, the amount of damage was estimated at several hundred billion dollars, not including the loss of life or the way to overcome it. Besides, if you leave it in the war, maybe one fine day a rocket will launch directly there, and the end will be known. So compared to the above two sources of energy, at least in terms of limitations, it is still better than nuclear energy.

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While it is true that some wind power companies in the US have faced financial difficulties, it is also important to consider the long-term benefits of renewable energy sources in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and mitigating the impacts of climate change.

Additionally, the economic viability of wind energy may vary depending on factors such as location, government policies, and technological advancements.
It is also important to note that subsidies for fossil fuels have been a longstanding practice in many countries, which can skew the market in favor of non-renewable energy sources. Ultimately, the question of whether wind energy is economically viable depends on a range of factors and can be subject to debate.

spectre71

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Lot's of morons in here. Wind is a shit source of energy. You can't schedule it and it's often produced when unneeded and the power has to be dumped. Sure it seems cool when your using other peoples money.

Solar, problem is it's unavailable during peek demand.

If someone says batteries they get a throat punch.

Nuclear power is the only way. 24/7/365 100%

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Quote from: Myleschetty on May 05, 2023, 02:55:31 PM

In this 21st century, I don't think the idea of Wind power is something people should consider when there are the best alternatives like solar power not to mention the drawback of the noise pollution that the wind turbines will generate noise which raises concern for residents living close to the turbines another is the wind speeds will also vary at some point.

They also kill birds.

More or less it's the same situation we have with electric cars, where they aren't cheap, efficient, have inadequate range, aren't easy to make or fix, are actually more combustible and prone to failure than traditional cars, yet we are told that they're somehow better.
Wind power sucks because it's completely unpredictable, unless you use VAWT generators, but these are even bigger and slower moving. They can work with very weak winds, but their efficiency doesn't go up much in strong winds.

Mauser

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Quote from: be.open on May 04, 2023, 04:23:11 AM

Against the backdrop of growing economic problems in the United States, this green environmental movement is becoming more and more like a large-scale scam to develop budget funds for an initially economically unviable idea.

Share your opinion on this matter.

I am no expert on green energy, but I looked into solar energy for my dad who thought about putting some panels on our roof. The main problem with green energy is that it all depends on the location where you put them. In our case it just didn't make sense to put down solar panels because they wouldn't profitable long term, the amount of sun we are getting is not enough and once the government substitutions run out it wouldn't make sense anymore. In wind energy it's very similar, the wind turbine need to be placed in areas with the most wind. The best place for them is actually in the ocean, as there can be much bigger turbines than on land. The problem is that most people don't live near an ocean. The best would be if we can transfer energy over large areas without any loss, unfortunately technology is not ready yet to store large quantities of electricity.

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Quote from: Sayeds56 on May 06, 2023, 12:12:33 AM

Quote from: summonerrk on May 04, 2023, 08:00:25 AM

Obtaining energy from wind is one of the most fastidious branches of energy. Special wind conditions are needed in order for wind turbines to pay off and bring profit. And judging by this news, they didn't bring her either. And it worked only for the future, rather as an experiment. It seems to me that it is necessary to develop this direction, it is eco-friendly, but to strengthen supervision over the appropriation and sale of funds allocated by the state.
Because in any case, in the future it will be a profitable project.

You are correct that wind energy is echo friendly and sustainable source of energy. However, its profitability a a project is a challenge due to specific requirement for wind pressure and maintenance issue that arise during the operation. Despite these challenges, I remain optimistic that as the technological development advances with continued government funding for research based projects, wind energy will become viable source of green energy in future.

Nevertheless, science does not stand still and the design of wind turbines is constantly being improved. The School of Technical and Industrial Engineering of the University of Oregon made a comparative analysis of the payback of air installations. And at the moment, the result is amazing, it's only 7 months! The main thing is just to find a good place for wind turbines.
Therefore, everything is not as bad as OP wrote.

Sayeds56

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Quote from: summonerrk on May 04, 2023, 08:00:25 AM

Obtaining energy from wind is one of the most fastidious branches of energy. Special wind conditions are needed in order for wind turbines to pay off and bring profit. And judging by this news, they didn't bring her either. And it worked only for the future, rather as an experiment. It seems to me that it is necessary to develop this direction, it is eco-friendly, but to strengthen supervision over the appropriation and sale of funds allocated by the state.
Because in any case, in the future it will be a profitable project.

You are correct that wind energy is echo friendly and sustainable source of energy. However, its profitability a a project is a challenge due to specific requirement for wind pressure and maintenance issue that arise during the operation. Despite these challenges, I remain optimistic that as the technological development advances with continued government funding for research based projects, wind energy will become viable source of green energy in future.

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Quote from: moneystery on May 05, 2023, 12:50:14 PM

It's very funny to see a business run without thinking about the losses from their operations, even without shame they still ask for donations from the government for their vision for environmentally friendly renewable energy.

That's true that these business probably have anticipated their potential loss already before they continue after having that analysis that they might experience losses and not even close to break-even. But with their noble business as they say as it's helping the environment, that's what they're capitalizing as business and have to offer to the people. It's like having that psychological conscious buying for their customers as strategy.

Quote from: moneystery on May 05, 2023, 12:50:14 PM

Even though it's not only wind, there are still other renewable energy sources which offer better energy output at a much cheaper cost compared to what is offered by wind turbines.

The dream of renewable energy seems to be a great business to exploit and businesses in the wind energy industry see it as an opportunity and are not wasting it.

What you've said are facts, it's actually a great business that these have foresee it before they go into actual business. But the respond of the market, for their target customers didn't go well as of now.

Maybe soon when all of these crises are nearing to its end or showing signs of recovery, they'll get up again and their sales will bump.

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Must acknowledge the potential drawbacks of any energy source, including wind power, and ensure that we are taking a comprehensive and balanced approach to energy production and consumption. Wind power is limited to regions with suitable wind conditions, and its performance can be affected by changes in weather patterns and other factors. Additionally, wind power alone may not be able to meet all of our energy needs, and a mix of different renewable energy sources may be necessary to achieve a sustainable energy future.

Myleschetty

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In this 21st century, I don't think the idea of Wind power is something people should consider when there are the best alternatives like solar power not to mention the drawback of the noise pollution that the wind turbines will generate noise which raises concern for residents living close to the turbines another is the wind speeds will also vary at some point.

Topic: Wind Power Has A Profitability Problem (Read 525 times)