Without power, how many years can a hardware wallet retain data?

Pmalek

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Quote from: libert19 on October 22, 2023, 08:00:37 AM

I'll be careful with next devices, was completely oblivious that such thing could happen.

Thanks to this thread, at least the cause was revealed to me.

It's a possible cause, but there is no way for me or anyone here of knowing if the humidity in your area is the one and only reason that your device is breaking. It could have had a partial affect, it could have been the only reason, or it's something completely unrelated.

un_rank

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- Jay -

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:16:25 PM

Yes, I agree. A portion, like passphrase should be encrypted into electronic documents. Backing up everything on paper or metal is not secure.

Backing up everything on paper is very secure and has worked properly for the number of years I have used it. There are lots of information that I have written down on paper that are still very readable now after decades that they were written, now I just have to keep it a safe location where third parties cannot access it and it cannot be damaged by natural factors. I then duplicate that for extra security.

Works better for me than an electronically encrypted file.

- Jay -

libert19

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Quote from: Pmalek on October 22, 2023, 07:29:18 AM

Quote from: libert19 on October 22, 2023, 03:42:14 AM

I didn't know humidity could break it, summers here go 40+ degrees.

How do you generally store your Ledger? Is it out in the open and exposed to the humidity or do you perhaps have any protective cases/boxes that protect against it?
Have you noticed any other failures in any other electronic devices in your home?

It was in it's own box up up until I configured it ~6 months ago, since then it's been out in open. No other electronic device damage.

I'll be careful with next devices, was completely oblivious that such thing could happen.

Thanks to this thread, at least the cause was revealed to me.

Pmalek

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Quote from: libert19 on October 22, 2023, 03:42:14 AM

I didn't know humidity could break it, summers here go 40+ degrees.

Humidity affects not just Ledger or hardware wallets, but electronic devices in general. It can affect or damage certain connectors and cause corrosion.
Humidity and hot temperatures can also affect cheap plastic, and Ledger isn't exactly known for investing a lot of money in quality materials. It can certainly affect displays as well, such as the one on your Ledger, which has lost its brightness and sharpness.

How do you generally store your Ledger? Is it out in the open and exposed to the humidity or do you perhaps have any protective cases/boxes that protect against it?
Have you noticed any other failures in any other electronic devices in your home?

libert19

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Quote from: Pmalek on October 22, 2023, 02:42:34 AM

Quote from: libert19 on October 15, 2023, 10:43:41 PM

So I figure this could this be a reason my ledger nano S is having screen malfunctioning. I got it years ago, but only started using it recently.

So, you never checked if it was working properly back when you bought it? It might have shipped like that or moisture got to it if you live in a humid climate.

Nope, never checked it then, I won it from a contest couple years back so it wasn't need per se so that I'd purchase and start using it instantly.

Configured it for the first time 6 months or so ago, it was fine then however now, it's all brightness is gone, need pitch black area to see anything, even then letters appear broken.

I didn't know humidity could break it, summers here go 40+ degrees.

Pmalek

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Regardless of the quality of the hardware and whether or not it will survive one year, a decade, or two, make sure your seed phrase backups are in good condition because that's the most vital element of any recovery. Even a brand-new hardware wallet could experience data loss the first week you got it, after a firmware upgrade, for instance.

Quote from: libert19 on October 15, 2023, 10:43:41 PM

So I figure this could this be a reason my ledger nano S is having screen malfunctioning. I got it years ago, but only started using it recently.

So, you never checked if it was working properly back when you bought it? It might have shipped like that or moisture got to it if you live in a humid climate.

libert19

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Quote from: Wapfika on September 28, 2023, 05:51:13 AM

I broke my previous hardware wallet by just not openly it for a year. Hardwallet needs to be open even once a month as per the general care description of the device.

So I figure this could this be a reason my ledger nano S is having screen malfunctioning. I got it years ago, but only started using it recently.

DaveF

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Quote from: blue Snow on September 28, 2023, 09:04:55 PM

After I read your thread, I immediately opened my Trezor wallet idle since 2019, and still worked.

Maybe if you worry, and rarely open (you just use that hardware wallet to save bitcoin for a long time), you have to prepare to open it once a year. no need to open the full wallet, just make sure is still turned on.

I connected Electrum+Trezor (idle since 2019) with an airgap device (didn't connect the internet), to make sure my trezor still worked.

That's great for today, but what about next year and the year after that. I said it above and I'll say it again. MAKE SURE YOUR SEED IS SAFE AND ACCESSIBLE.

Not accessible as in you can get to it at this minute, but in case your HW wallet dies you can get to it.

All hardware will eventually have an issue. Panic after it happens is not good. A shrug and let me get a new device and put my seed in it is good.

-Dave

satscraper

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Quote from: lyw123 on October 05, 2023, 06:56:07 PM

Quote

The charge leakage from floating gate which is part of memory cell that traps electrons via hot electron-injection thus setting it to binary "0" , in a first approximation, doesn't depend on whether hardware wallet is turned on or off. I mean if you turn it on, the injections into relevant cells will not happen again. In fact you should rewrite sensitive info if you want to rejuvenate the old one in the memory. Thus it doesn't matter how often a year you will turn you device on to prevent the loss of your information as applied power doesn't come into play.

For TLC's USB flash drive, do I need to copy and paste important files every year?

Nope, it's not necessary. It's better to back up important files using two or three flash drives. For highly sensitive information the use of SLS NAND-based memory is preferable.

In fact, during my more than 20 years of dealing with USB flash drives, I have never encountered file loss caused by charge leakage. Most issues were caused by faulty controllers.

lyw123

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Quote

The charge leakage from floating gate which is part of memory cell that traps electrons via hot electron-injection thus setting it to binary "0" , in a first approximation, doesn't depend on whether hardware wallet is turned on or off. I mean if you turn it on, the injections into relevant cells will not happen again. In fact you should rewrite sensitive info if you want to rejuvenate the old one in the memory. Thus it doesn't matter how often a year you will turn you device on to prevent the loss of your information as applied power doesn't come into play.

For TLC's USB flash drive, do I need to copy and paste important files every year?
I don't know how the internal drive of the U disk works. For hardware wallets, if SLC particles are used, there is no need to pay attention to this issue.

satscraper

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Quote from: blue Snow on September 28, 2023, 09:04:55 PM

Maybe if you worry, and rarely open (you just use that hardware wallet to save bitcoin for a long time), you have to prepare to open it once a year. no need to open the full wallet, just make sure is still turned on.

The charge leakage from floating gate which is part of memory cell that traps electrons via hot electron-injection thus setting it to binary "0" , in a first approximation, doesn't depend on whether hardware wallet is turned on or off. I mean if you turn it on, the injections into relevant cells will not happen again. In fact you should rewrite sensitive info if you want to rejuvenate the old one in the memory. Thus it doesn't matter how often a year you will turn you device on to prevent the loss of your information as applied power doesn't come into play.

The below picture provides a rough idea on how the non-volatile memory cell works:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory

lyw123

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Quote

After I read your thread, I immediately opened my Trezor wallet idle since 2019, and still worked.

Maybe if you worry, and rarely open (you just use that hardware wallet to save bitcoin for a long time), you have to prepare to open it once a year. no need to open the full wallet, just make sure is still turned on.

I connected Electrum+Trezor (idle since 2019) with an airgap device (didn't connect the internet), to make sure my trezor still worked.

You guess right. That is what I want to do. Grin

Airgapped method through electrum is good.

blue Snow

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After I read your thread, I immediately opened my Trezor wallet idle since 2019, and still worked.

Maybe if you worry, and rarely open (you just use that hardware wallet to save bitcoin for a long time), you have to prepare to open it once a year. no need to open the full wallet, just make sure is still turned on.

I connected Electrum+Trezor (idle since 2019) with an airgap device (didn't connect the internet), to make sure my trezor still worked.

lyw123

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Quote

What prevents you from periodically turning on the HW device? This process takes very little time.

Ordinary investors also need to earn money to support their families, so they may not necessarily pay frequent attention to hardware wallets.

lyw123

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Quote

If it was made using 'good' hardware. If then went cheap, then you never know....

The other thing to keep in mind is the battery if it's not USB powered. Lithium batts can get so low that they just die and can't be recharged so you have to take the wallet apart and install a new one.
Or if it's one that takes regular batteries, make sure that they don't do the sit for years and leak all over everything death.

And if it has a screen I think everyone has had at least one cell phone / monitor / whatever screen just up and die.

So, it's not just the data but the unit as a whole.

So

MAKE SURE YOUR SEED IS SAFE.

-Dave

Your analysis is very professional. Thank you. It is necessary to inspect all hardware wallets and encrypted USB drives annually and give them a recharge.

lyw123

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Quote from: BitMaxz on September 28, 2023, 07:07:51 PM

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 06:00:36 PM

Quote

This is an bad idea. Overly complicated, zero redundancy, significantly increases the chance that you are unable to recover your wallets.

Maybe everyone has their own methods, and of course, you are more professional.
Here are my thoughts: Firstly, writing down all the seed phrase and passphrase on paper or separately on different papers, and then making multiple copies and keeping them at home makes me feel insecure. So, I choose to write a portion of it on paper and encrypt another portion as an electronic file. Each part have several backups. As long as one copy of each part survives, the wallet can be restored.

Yeah, you are right having multiple copies is not secure however you can encrypt your backup seed with custom/extended word even if you have multiple backups if someone finds your seed backup without the extended word he won't be able to recover your wallet.
Just make sure that you memorize the extended word and don't include it on the piece of paper where you write down the seed.

Yes, I agree. A portion, like passphrase should be encrypted into electronic documents. Backing up everything on paper or metal is not secure.

Topic: Without power, how many years can a hardware wallet retain data? (Read 305 times)