World's First Bitcoin Lawsuit - Cartmell v. Bitcoinica - page 2.

jgarzik

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Quote from: Herodes on January 26, 2013, 11:09:38 PM

It's flabbergasting that people deposited serious amounts of money on a website, created by a teen in 4 days.

+1000

Well, first, it is amazing that high profile bitcoin luminaries would keep any amount of serious money on a remote website. When bitcoinica first appeared, pretty much 100% of bitcoin web wallets had been hacked and most had been DDoS'd as well. Your own encrypted, decentralized, backed up computer is far more secure than (at that time) that proven track record.

And, as you say, who would trust that much money to a teen running a fly-by-night website, who had no experience in the area of finance in question? Especially given HK's reputation it seemed likely that Bitcoinica was a bucket shop or possibly associated with organized crime in some way.

Herodes

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Quote from: MemoryDealers on January 26, 2013, 11:34:57 PM

It's flabbergasting that Patrick, Amir, and Donald of Interstango refused to even lift a finger to help everyone get part of their money back.
Instead they have actively worked to block the easiest solutions for everyone involved.
They should be ashamed.

Yes, that's flabbergasting as well. But as we've all realized by now, some people have no shame at all.

Quote from: Monster Tent on January 26, 2013, 11:36:52 PM

Quote from: Herodes on January 26, 2013, 11:09:38 PM

It's flabbergasting that people deposited serious amounts of money on a website, created by a teen in 4 days.

No more flabbergasting than people handing over millions to some guy offering 7% a week or some company promising to deliver a machine that mines unicorns.

Agreed.

Monster Tent

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Quote from: Herodes on January 26, 2013, 11:09:38 PM

It's flabbergasting that people deposited serious amounts of money on a website, created by a teen in 4 days.

No more flabbergasting than people handing over millions to some guy offering 7% a week or some company promising to deliver a machine that mines unicorns.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: lonelyminer (Peter Šurda) on August 08, 2012, 11:31:44 AM

Feel free to have a laugh at my expense.

OK, how's this? Tongue

MemoryDealers

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It's flabbergasting that Patrick, Amir, and Donald of Interstango refused to even lift a finger to help everyone get part of their money back.
Instead they have actively worked to block the easiest solutions for everyone involved.
They should be ashamed.

Herodes

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It's flabbergasting that people deposited serious amounts of money on a website, created by a teen in 4 days.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Thank you so much for the updates on this case. So apparently the fact that people gave money to a child have less culpability than the folks that tried to clean up the child's mess. Personally, I would be ashamed to go to court to sue a child, but that's just me. I am only a parent. If I missed any major points to this, please point me to the wiki or FAQ.

Irrespective of the motive or the outcome of this decision, it will be advertising for Bitcoin paid for by the plaintiffs.

btcx

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UPDATE 25/Jan/2013:

Defendant Intersango escapes.

Other Defendants' motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction is denied. Case allowed to proceed against Bitcoinica, Patrick Strateman, Amir Taaki and Donald Norman in California.

Quote

"Moving Defendants have failed to show that New Zealand is a suitable forum."

"The language of the Terms and Conditions allegedly on the website, even if it is enforceable, states only that 'you [meaning a customer] agree to submit to settle any dispute,' not that customers could not file actions against Bitcoinica outside New Zealand."

"In addition, the fact of a liquidation proceeding against Bitcoinica in New Zealand is not sufficient grounds to stay this action."

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_ECG6JRZs-7SDBhU2ducWM5eEU/edit

repentance

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Quote from: Explodicle on August 16, 2012, 02:43:28 PM

Is it possible to run an exchange where users must opt out of any/all legal recourse? I'd rather risk losing everything I've invested in a site than have to indirectly pay for liability, just because of the inefficiency of the legal system. It's not like the settlement money comes out of thin air - all similar business will now need to pass this cost onto consumers.

Either way we pay for risk, let me cut out the middleman if I want.

You'd have to establish it in a country which allows people to contract away statutory rights. Even if you did that, people may still have recourse under the laws of their home country if the exchange is "doing business in" that nation. There's no way that criminal liability can be contracted away because the state isn't a party to any contracts between a user and an exchange.

While you, personally, might be happy to do business with an exchange you have no recourse against, such a venture wouldn't be profitable for the operators unless a lot of other people were willing to take that same risk.

Vladimir

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-

Quote from: dree12 on August 16, 2012, 03:01:03 PM

Quote from: Explodicle on August 16, 2012, 02:43:28 PM

Is it possible to run an exchange where users must opt out of any/all legal recourse? I'd rather risk losing everything I've invested in a site than have to indirectly pay for liability, just because of the inefficiency of the legal system. It's not like the settlement money comes out of thin air - all similar business will now need to pass this cost onto consumers.

Either way we pay for risk, let me cut out the middleman if I want.

IANAL, but a short TOS will probably do in most states:

Code:

By participating in Exchange, you agree to surrender any assets transferred and hold harmless Exchange regardless of any damages.

IANAL, but ~~idiots~~ naive kids put all kinds of BS into their T&C and think that it would hold any water in court.

dree12

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Quote from: Explodicle on August 16, 2012, 02:43:28 PM

Is it possible to run an exchange where users must opt out of any/all legal recourse? I'd rather risk losing everything I've invested in a site than have to indirectly pay for liability, just because of the inefficiency of the legal system. It's not like the settlement money comes out of thin air - all similar business will now need to pass this cost onto consumers.

Either way we pay for risk, let me cut out the middleman if I want.

IANAL, but a short TOS will probably do in most states:

Code:

By participating in Exchange, you agree to surrender any assets transferred and hold harmless Exchange regardless of any damages.

Explodicle

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Activity: 950

Merit: 1001

Is it possible to run an exchange where users must opt out of any/all legal recourse? I'd rather risk losing everything I've invested in a site than have to indirectly pay for liability, just because of the inefficiency of the legal system. It's not like the settlement money comes out of thin air - all similar business will now need to pass this cost onto consumers.

Either way we pay for risk, let me cut out the middleman if I want.

repentance

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Posting this link for accuracy. It looks like Amir did respond to contact by the plaintiffs and was willing to consider the idea of them taking over Bitcoinica and the claims process.

Quote

That sounds like a good plan. I also would be willing to help you verify and vet claims.

However the problem is that now Patrick and Donald have said they're done. They feel like we had no legal responsibility to take on the claims, and that we took it on so people's payments would simply get done. Now that they've walked away, they aren't dealing with this mess. They are also unlikely to hand over the funds to any third party.

http://privatepaste.com/0c4b934417

repentance

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Quote from: davout on August 15, 2012, 01:39:53 PM

This will be interesting

Maybe not. A majority of lawsuits are either dropped or settled on undisclosed terms.

davout

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1davout

This will be interesting

tvbcof

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Quote from: dree12 on August 14, 2012, 09:16:53 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on August 14, 2012, 08:24:24 PM

Heh. Among the engineering feats (purportedly) of Zhou is the ability to convert Libertarians into Socialists. It's OK. I don't mind if some of my tax dollars go toward helping seek recompense for any member of society who was wronged...even given the questionable judgement of entrusting half a million $$$ to a minor in Asia and/or a handful of bozos living under the British crown.

Not believing in the current system doesn't mean not using it.

Very true. I myself am not above exploiting the shit out of things I have no belief in or fondness for. Like unemployment insurance when I'm lucky enough to arrange a lack of work. I suspect that Roger has paid plenty of taxes and probably a lot more than me so he's more than entitled to use the system if he can. Although I'd personally be on the fence about doing so in the case of Bitcoin related issue (in spite of my pinko leanings) since a refreshing thing about Bitcoin is that it's independence from TPTB (which are rotten to the core and in particular Holder's justice department,) I'd probably do it. Especially for that kind of money. I prefer and advocate the approach I actually took; don't drop your pants and bend over in front of someone who is likely to fuck you. I lost the amount of BTC I expected I like would to Bitcoinica...2 or 3 iirc.

dree12

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Quote from: tvbcof on August 14, 2012, 08:24:24 PM

Heh. Among the engineering feats (purportedly) of Zhou is the ability to convert Libertarians into Socialists. It's OK. I don't mind if some of my tax dollars go toward helping seek recompense for any member of society who was wronged...even given the questionable judgement of entrusting half a million $$$ to a minor in Asia and/or a handful of bozos living under the British crown.

Not believing in the current system doesn't mean not using it.

Rarity

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Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!

Yeah, but the silent majority of Bitcoiners are leftists/socialists. Satoshi, most likely, is one of them. It's not at all shocking we are beginning the process of having government regulate Bitcoin, as a currency it was designed for this to happen.

tvbcof

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Quote from: repentance on August 14, 2012, 08:54:55 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on August 14, 2012, 08:24:24 PM

Heh. Among the engineering feats (purportedly) of Zhou is the ability to convert Libertarians into Socialists. It's OK. I don't mind if some of my tax dollars go toward helping seek recompense for any member of society who was wronged...even given the questionable judgement of entrusting half a million $$$ to a minor in Asia and/or a handful of bozos living under the British crown.

Your first mistake is assuming that most of the people who placed money/BTC" with Bitcoinica are libertarians.

At least 33% of the plaintiffs in this case are fairly vocal in their advocacy of that line of political philosophy. That caught my attention...and provoked a chuckle.

repentance

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Quote from: tvbcof on August 14, 2012, 08:24:24 PM

Heh. Among the engineering feats (purportedly) of Zhou is the ability to convert Libertarians into Socialists. It's OK. I don't mind if some of my tax dollars go toward helping seek recompense for any member of society who was wronged...even given the questionable judgement of entrusting half a million $$$ to a minor in Asia and/or a handful of bozos living under the British crown.

Your first mistake is assuming that most of the people who placed money/BTC" with Bitcoinica are libertarians.

Topic: World's First Bitcoin Lawsuit - Cartmell v. Bitcoinica - page 2. (Read 18764 times)