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Topic: Worldwar 3 and EMP bombs - page 3. (Read 5594 times)

legendary
Activity: 1372
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Anarchy is not chaos.
June 06, 2013, 08:54:04 AM
#21
]Unfortunately, the type of launch system for an EMP is different than an ICBM.  An EMP can be placed at the right altitude say from a boat in the Gulf of Mexico using SCUD level rocket technology and NO other guidance system.

that puts a pretty big footprint on the ground out of commission as far as electronics and power is concerned, say 500 mile diameter.

I agree though that the Carrington event, the solar flare, is far more serious because it could affect the whole planet or a big part of it.

yes, that's a FOBS system. In a way, it's worse. The 14 minute DEW alert is based on ICBM's which have a much higher and longer orbit. Against a FOBS attack, the interval to decide NOT to launch a retaliatory strike (which is the way the response is structured) is MUCH smaller. Maybe five minutes.

My biggest point on this, other than the irrelevancy of bitcoin or any other currency, is that in the interval between launch and response, there is literally no way to determine whether that missile is aimed to launch an attack against electronics or kill a city.

In terms of financial devastation, a monster solar flare is probably more of a concern as it's effects would be at least half the globe, depending on duration. But other than creating chaos, it would hardly be a world stopping event. Any fool who thinks they can pull off an EMP strike without direct nuclear reprisal just hasn't done the math. Unfortunately, a whole hell of a lot of politicians on all sides aren't too good about the math. By some strange fortune, none of the real looney-tunes have gotten hold of the launch codes yet.

Of all the nuclear powers on earth, I fear North Korea the least, because they have such primitive delivery systems. Our warning against them would be pretty good, unless they tried to pull off a FOBS attack from a boat, and frankly I think China would then erase them from the map before anyone else responded. I also think that the current "dear leader" is young, but not stupid. He knows this. They are playing a game of brinkmanship and it will end badly, but probably not horribly from a global standpoing. China is unlikely to use their nukes as anything but a deterrent. Russia and the USA likewise, unless McCain somehow gets hold of the launch codes. India probably falls in that category. That basically leaves two major wildcards. Pakistan and Israel. Pakistan is much like North Korea in that respect, so probably less of a threat than most, except for their love of pissing off India. Israel is the nuclear power than frightens me the most.

Israel has never openly admitted to having a nuclear arsenal and are not signatory to the non proliferation agreements. They have hinted, more than once, that they would be willing to use nukes against their neighbors. That they do have them, and what numbers, is an open secret. Their arsenal is not huge, but they could absolutely devastate much of the middle east. They could also easily reach Russia and China, and a great deal of Africa. This is not even counting their submarines. In my view, the only thing that restrains them is that they are not suicidal, for the most part. But they do have itchy trigger fingers.

Despite a great deal of chest pounding by the bastards that rule my country, Iran is not a threat. Even if they could or have developed some small scale weapons, they have no real way to deliver them against anyone but their neighbors. And they are painfully aware of how easy it would be for Israel to remove them from the map with their large and modern nuclear arsenal.

I have been and remain a proponent of nuclear electric power, but the bomb needs to go. Somehow, we as a species need to figure out a way to put an end to the existence of these weapons. They serve NO military purpose. They are and always have been a purely political terror weapon. While in a given area, poison gas has a longer and more devastating effect, there's no chance of such weapons ever going global, and mitigation is trivial by comparison.

Given the larger picture, I see any worry about whether a currency, whatever it's merits, might survive a nuclear attack to be insultingly trivial.
hero member
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 06, 2013, 08:51:01 AM
#20
It actually is possible to generate an EMP without a nuclear blast. As you point out, though, the delivery systems would be pretty similar, and a nuclear blast is, I think (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the strongest way of generating an EMP currently available. Certainly the effect would be identical, to anyone not in direct line-of-sight of the event: A missile launch, and then a few seconds later, they lose contact with a large swathe of countryside.

Thus, if one is worrying about world-wide EMP, one is also probably worrying about world-wide nuclear war, and at that point, the inability to access your bitcoin wallets is the least of your problems.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
June 06, 2013, 06:35:08 AM
#19
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
June 06, 2013, 05:11:42 AM
#18
WWIII would result in the end of humanity for sure.
Probably not the end. We're a remarkably resilient species. But it woud definitely set us back a ways.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
   -- Albert Einstein

One can never tell the age of forum members, so I'll just flat out state that I grew up believing the world was going to go up in a mushroom cloud before I was 18. I'm just barely old enough to remember those stupid "duck and cover" drills.

But strangely enough, both the Soviet Union and the United States managed to relax their Nuclear trigger fingers, and even stranger Israel managed to restrain themselves. By 1986, the world had cooled down quite a bit. Probably because my generation and the one just previous to it had studied this shit to death, and found that there is NO EXCUSE for a nuclear exchange. Only madmen build these weapons, and only madmen would pull the trigger. Initially they didn't understand the long term dangers. They don't have that excuse anymore. Unfortunately you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

EMP bombs are a proposal by the madmen. There is NO SUCH THING as a limited nuclear war. As I noted in my previous post, and as Myrkul has noted above via Einstein.

Reread my first response here. It's a pretty accurate overview of SAC/NORAD's STANDARD response to a nuclear first strike. And again, please note that the delivery system for a "pure" EMP bomb is a Fractional Orbit Bombarment System missile carrying several Multiple Entry Reentry Vehicles, each carrying a ten to fifteen kiloton nuclear bomb fused to explode just above the breatheable atmosphere. The EMP burst is a SIDE EFFECT of a nuclear chain reaction. Ya can't have the one without the other. The difference between an ELINT blackout attack and the destruction of a city is a few thousand feet, not the type of bomb.
Yes, I know they have refined them somewhat, but not that much.

The biggest point here remains that the early warning systems, on all nuclear armed sides, CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE between an EMP attack and a full on first strike. Again, madmen's choices. If you don't strike back you commit suicide. If you do strike back, you commit suicide. Even the deep shelters and long term planning of civil defense agencies and individual preppers are no guaranty. Nuclear war offers only ghastly uncertainties and the prospect of a world devastated beyond repair.

One final point is that only nation states ever come up with such ghastly weapons. They are not content to eat your flesh and drink your blood, they want the ability to destroy all life.

Some day, some mad fuck is going to push the button. We NEED to get off planet colonies if the species is to both survive AND keep it's accumulated knowledge and wisdom. Frankly, after a nuclear exchange, in the unlikely event that you survive, clean water, food, and lead for rad shielding will probably be the main currencies of exchange for the two or three percent that survive.
hero member
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Dolphins Finance TRUSTED FINANCE
June 05, 2013, 11:22:52 PM
#17
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
   -- Albert Einstein

What an awesome quote!!
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 05, 2013, 10:47:45 PM
#16
WWIII would result in the end of humanity for sure.
Probably not the end. We're a remarkably resilient species. But it woud definitely set us back a ways.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
   -- Albert Einstein
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1045
June 05, 2013, 10:20:27 PM
#15
WWIII would result in the end of humanity for sure.
How do you know it for sure?
b!z
legendary
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June 05, 2013, 10:15:32 PM
#14
WWIII would result in the end of humanity for sure.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1049
Death to enemies!
June 05, 2013, 09:36:45 PM
#13
EMP will not destroy my local network. Bitcoin will continue to function. I will only need backup generator, maybe when war will break out I could build small hydro station on nearby river without any paperwork.
member
Activity: 98
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Official Troll of bitcointalk,Certified by John K.
June 05, 2013, 08:12:03 PM
#12
Alright, let's play with this a little bit. Just to show how absurd even CARING about currency is in that situation. Bitcoin is small cap. The major fiat exchanges would be momentarily wiped out as well.

But who cares?

For these devices to work without widespread radiation poisoning and a humongous shockwave, they have to be airburst at rather extreme altitude. This will require a spread of either FOBS or ICBM missles. Since early warning satellites and radars cannot tell that the missile showing the profile of a nuclear launch is an EMP device (since it would be riding exactly the same vehicle as a MIRV capable ICBM or FOBS) The monitoring systems would go to DEFCON 1 or it's equivalent. That means nuclear war IS ON.

The most common counter plan is a counterpunch. General launch on the infrastructure, military, and political targets of the launching nation. That means a devastating counterstrike with a large portion of everything the counterstriking country has. Land, air, and submarine based. And RIGHT FUCKING NOW, becuase in the best case scenario they have 14 minutes to respond before riding out the initial strike.

This is the basis of the Mutually Assured Destruction argument, and ALL current nuclear powers subscribe to it, with the possible exception of North Korea.

EMP is a transient effect. Sure, it's damaging, but not for very long. It can be recovered from. It's only real use would be if they were somehow confident that they could achieve a first strike ahead of the pre-programmed counterstrike. In 1956, that was a possibility. Now it's not. The robots would fire the missiles.

The only real variables in nuclear warfare are whether some madman starts it, and whether anyone is sane enough to stop it after the first wave.

Well, actually there is a third. Whether or not any life remains above ground after the exchange.

This, this is the best reply, congrats man you have won a 100$ worth
lolipop, which you will never get from me.  Cheesy

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
June 05, 2013, 08:06:30 PM
#11
Alright, let's play with this a little bit. Just to show how absurd even CARING about currency is in that situation. Bitcoin is small cap. The major fiat exchanges would be momentarily wiped out as well.

But who cares?

For these devices to work without widespread radiation poisoning and a humongous shockwave, they have to be airburst at rather extreme altitude. This will require a spread of either FOBS or ICBM missles. Since early warning satellites and radars cannot tell that the missile showing the profile of a nuclear launch is an EMP device (since it would be riding exactly the same vehicle as a MIRV capable ICBM or FOBS) The monitoring systems would go to DEFCON 1 or it's equivalent. That means nuclear war IS ON.

The most common counter plan is a counterpunch. General launch on the infrastructure, military, and political targets of the launching nation. That means a devastating counterstrike with a large portion of everything the counterstriking country has. Land, air, and submarine based. And RIGHT FUCKING NOW, becuase in the best case scenario they have 14 minutes to respond before riding out the initial strike.

This is the basis of the Mutually Assured Destruction argument, and ALL current nuclear powers subscribe to it, with the possible exception of North Korea.

EMP is a transient effect. Sure, it's damaging, but not for very long. It can be recovered from. It's only real use would be if they were somehow confident that they could achieve a first strike ahead of the pre-programmed counterstrike. In 1956, that was a possibility. Now it's not. The robots would fire the missiles.

The only real variables in nuclear warfare are whether some madman starts it, and whether anyone is sane enough to stop it after the first wave.

Well, actually there is a third. Whether or not any life remains above ground after the exchange.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 05, 2013, 07:32:21 PM
#10
Since we would all die in a nuclear war it is not really a concern. Cockroaches do not need bitcoin.

What if there will be no nuclear attack? only EMP..
It would need to be literally world-wide to affect Bitcoin, and if the internet went down, bitcoin would be the last thing on anyone's mind (at least, in the areas affected).
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Official Troll of bitcointalk,Certified by John K.
June 05, 2013, 07:25:50 PM
#9
Since we would all die in a nuclear war it is not really a concern. Cockroaches do not need bitcoin.

What if there will be no nuclear attack? only EMP..
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1147
The revolution will be monetized!
June 05, 2013, 02:52:00 PM
#8
Since we would all die in a nuclear war it is not really a concern. Cockroaches do not need bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
June 05, 2013, 02:49:44 PM
#7
Somehow, I think thats going to be least of our worries.


The issue is that most of our infrastructure is computerized. There will no power and most important no communication. 

In one small part of the world.

Bitcoin is global.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
June 05, 2013, 02:48:50 PM
#6
As long as my debit card still works. Or I can go to an ATM and get my money out of the bank I will be fine.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 514
June 05, 2013, 12:23:31 PM
#5
I think a big solar flare is a bigger threat. The effects from that would be global and not restricted to one or two regions.
And it WILL happen sooner or later.
lch
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
June 05, 2013, 10:56:17 AM
#4
Somehow, I think thats going to be least of our worries.


The issue is that most of our infrastructure is computerized. There will no power and most important no communication. 

You mean you guys haven't made a room size faraday cage and filled it with all kinds of important electronics?

lol  Grin
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
June 05, 2013, 10:42:14 AM
#3
Somehow, I think thats going to be least of our worries.


The issue is that most of our infrastructure is computerized. There will no power and most important no communication. 
lch
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
June 05, 2013, 10:39:47 AM
#2
Somehow, I think thats going to be least of our worries.
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