Topic: Worried about Mt Gox? What does this price fall mean for BTC and its clones? - page 2. (Read 6292 times)

The network is subject to the whims of the ripple creators when ever they change the protocol of the role network. Not only can they increase distribution but they can also increase total ripples changing the value of ripples reason to other crypto currencies. Again anything can be done with a software update. So yes Ripple adds additional,  unnecessary risk.

Why would they,  you say? See that is the first mistake of Ripple. You prove again it is centralized control. You are putting faith in the governing body of Ripple.  Human beings. You assume that all people are honest and that none of them can be corrupted.

The bitcoin market is a free market. People had to exchange some other store of value for Bitcoins. So they had to buy into it. So if they own a lot it is because of a transfer of value. People buying into bitcoin know that there are buyers that entered the market before them and accept the risk that they bought in early at lower perceived value. That is post of the mechanics of a free market.

Ripple  creators dictate the value independent of the people who trade value to buy into Ripple as  a risk they can be devalued but the role creators. Buyers into Ripple have to accept that Ripple governance is honest and cannot be corrupt.  But that is not true.

Ripple is a four profit corporation and has a bottom line.  They can be bought and lobbied into diluting the value of ripples if it turns a profit for the Corporation. Again a strike against Ripple.

The network is only subject to the whims of the Ripple creators when it comes to distribution of XRP. That is not relevant for its use as an IOU network.


They most certainly do, but again it is only relation to XRP. For now, the network is fairly centralized, but any open alternative will be too at the start. Gateways are an essential intermediary to be able to actually convert IOUs, and companies are not breaking down the door vying to do this yet.


This is not an accurate portrayal of how ripple works. I have no vested interest in convincing you though.

You misinterpret the argument. An IOU can be determined as money. The problem with Ripple and most fiat systems is that an intermediary determines the value of the fiat apart from the value of the original asset.  Not only do buyers of Ripple have to content with the risk of bitcoin (changes in protocols by developers) but they are also subject to the whims of the Ripple creators.

Ripple creators as  a company can be  bought, sold, paid off, or controlled by governments. They create additional risk where it is not needed. They are the  good smith's who write IOUs that can potentially coming fraud against Ripple participants by changing the value of ripples independent of the value of bitcoin.

No good has come from using derivatives in financial markets as  they always lead to financial crisis.

Not this again.

We come here respectfully and you have a tantrum. You don't back up anything I ask for with sources. You paint the thread in YOUR propaganda and then you think we have some evil motive with our debating 'tactics'. Sorry that you are intimidated by the facts but those 'tactics' are just convincing, truthful arguments. But it is hard to debate with someone who clearly exhibits very little frontal lobe activity. For example: Your big come back is that Ripple Labs could dump at anytime.... WHY WOULD THEY? They are a for profit organization which does not want to destroy their work. That same logic can be used in regards to Satoshi's 1 million BTC or the US Government's hundreds of thousands of BTC. Satoshi won't dump his 1 million BTC because it will destroy his work. Back to my old post, go and re-read everything we have stated.

I feel like hitting my head against the wall every time I read your replies.

Dumb as read  Wikipedia. I did provide proof and you quoted it but you are so wrapped up in  spreading propaganda that you didn't see it in front of your face.   I know you and the whale came here with an agenda to push Ripple on people here trying to fill them into thinking is an investment without telling them that Ripple is a derivative. You and him use dishonest debate tactics like deflection of topic and attacks on the debater.

Again the proof that  Ripple is centralized....

As of November 30, 2012, 7.2 billion XRP have been distributed.[19] As of January 20, 2014, the World Community Grid (through ComputingForGood) gives away 1.5 million XRP per day to individuals who donate spare processor time to analyze aspects of the human genome, HIV, dengue fever, muscular dystrophy, cancer, influenza, rice crop yields and clean energy. [22] The amount of XRP distributed can be found on the Ripple website and their movement tracked through the Ripple Live Network. [23]

That is centralized control. Bitcoin is distributed by a computer algorithm.  Ripple is distributed by people. They can decide to dump them all at once. They can just increase the size of the available ripples when ever they feel like. Ripple is like a central bank.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(payment_protocol)

Yes, this. So it will be forked, the good stuff used and the bad stuff left behind.
Splash looks nice but there is no news as of late.

Nope, this is plainly wrong - there are gateways (like Bitstamp) that issue several currencies e.g. USD and BTC. Also you are NOT going to be out of money if some other gateway you don't have anything to do with fails. You probably misunderstood how Ripple works, if you trust a gateway that has no trust lines to ripple to other gateways (and why should they?!) this is a closed ecosystem to trade. The advantage of Ripple is that you are free to open it for you, e.g. you can easily trade for other balances and you are not locked in to the one you first used.

Gateways also hold the REAL ASSETS of their clients, that's all they do - they let them use these assets (to be traded or transacted) on Ripple instead of forcing them to use their own (mostly) closed source opaque trading engine, that's the only difference to a Bitcoin exchange and that does not have to do anything with how the assets are represented.

Ripple can be maybe more easily understood as a competitor to BitPay: You trust a gateway (e.g. BitPaygateway) in a single currency (e.g. USD) and set up a way to deposit/withdraw this (e.g. you tell them your bank account). If someone wants to pay you, you will receive USD by BitPaygateway, not the BTC (or EUR or LTC or...) the person used to pay you. To pay you, in BitPay the payer has to trust BitPay with her BTC ("Pay 0.01 BTC to this addresss to send x USD to $Merchant: 1asdfg...") and also accept their market rates. In Ripple she only needs to own a balance that can somehow be traded for BitPaygateway USD and can optionally set trading offers herself if she doesn't like the current market situaion and thinks someone might rather take her offer. To make this trade you don't need to trust BitPaygateway for USD by the way...

Anyways, as I said, Ripple is not that easy to understand and there is a lot of misinformation around. Your understanding is simply wrong (or only partially correct, to put it in kinder words). If you want to talk about facts, the ones you stated above are simply not true. You do not have to trust any gateway to trade on Ripple. You do not have to trsut more than one gateway to deposit/withdraw anything on Ripple. You cannot be defrauded for more than you trusted a fraudilent entity (in Bitcoin terms: Even though pirateat40 had probably a debt of several million BTC but only a few 10k in "real" BTC, this did not affect the amount of BTC people had displayed at MtGox at that time) and Bitcoin exchanges do trade, transfer (in some cases), issue and redeem IOUs. Ripple gateways only issue and redeem them, they are traded and transferred on Ripple.

 From what you just stated it makes it obvious to all you too, just misstated the facts. Not myself. I am not the one 'ranting'. And I am not the ones misrepresenting anything.

 You now maliciously RANT my statements of FACT.

Now I will admonish your misrepresentation of the facts.


 Exchanges hold the REAL ASSETS, of their clients. Let their clients trade them. Then later distribute them back to their clients. Only one entity must be trusted in this case; the Exchange.

 Where as on Ripple there are at a minimum of two Gateways that must be trusted, and that's at a minimum, to get the real underlying asset cleared and home. And that's in the best case situation. If one extends any trust elsewhere on the Ripple Network then suddenly one can be held fully liable for any of those trusted and their failure to own up to those IOU's.

 So no, your full of it. And yes, your the one ranting and misrepresenting.


 No. I wont bother anymore. I just gutted you, so to speak. Clearly you have a conflict of interest.

 But it would be wise to stop misrepresenting the Ripple Network. And not to misrepresent what it's competitors are either. Otherwise the law suits may really start flying, and blowing back at those that
think their above reproach.



Caveat emptor

The ripple concept is a brilliant one. The part of the main arguments against it being an IOU system are weak (it's not real money!--except this is a construct that is millennia old). Its execution leaves a lot to be desired, though. There is no advantage to anyone using the ripple system vs. a more open competitor.

And, those who are going around and saying half-truths like 28 billion have been distributed without noting that 20 billion of that has been distributed to its coders is not the way to honestly market it. But you know that, and you know that the honest marketing does not sound very appealing.

@Sukrim where did all of these imbeciles come from? Is it too much to ask for a well structured argument on why Ripple is flawed without lies or big red text?

I think you will find a lot of these users are puppet accounts of TradeFortress. He has gone underground now that he has been exposed for being a scammer.

It is like you get the people who don't get Ripple because it is new to them OR you get the people who just don't get Ripple with a bucket on their head. I find this quite funny, yet embarrassing.

So I thought I would be all colorful and creative as well  

Uhm, any Bitcoin exchange listed on http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ (except direct face 2 face transactions for cash on localbitcoins) in fact do NEVER deal with pure BTC trades, ONLY with IOUs. Did you post there too, that these are not in fact BTC and they are fraudilent or grossly misrepresenting facts on their website? BTC IOU volume is orders of magnitudes larger in amount of currency and amount of transactions than volume on Bitcoin (the block chain) itself and has been for years now. This is true for Altcoins too by the way, any account balance you do not have in your wallet but on a website like Cryptsy or Bitstamp is an "IOU", not connected in any way to what you understand as "Bitcoin", "Litecoin" or "USD" other than your trust to be able to redeem this value some time in the future.

Go on and tell me how you purchased ALL of your *coins only via mining or cash transactions, because anything else did involve IOUs (of your bank, of your exchange, of your escrow agent...).

Edit:
e.g. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4994968 - you do NOT state that the BTC and all other currencies deposited there are in fact IOUs. Are you a fraud?!
To quote you again, because it perfectly fits:

 Having realized that this is not 100% accurate (the above quote) and that your misrepresenting what the
" XRP, BTC, LTC, USD, shares etc. " are inside Ripples Network. (their not real " XRP, BTC, LTC, USD, shares etc."). But instead their merely IOU's. IF I understand correctly. Maybe I don't. I think by now I FINALLY do.

 That said your not stating that in your 1st statement in this thread (That their merely IOU's). That's a form of either fraud, or gross misrepresentation. A criminal offense if I recall correctly concerning financial instruments But then you just merely overlooked that correct??? And you didn't mean to misrepresent correct?
 
 Misleading others into thinking their " XRP, BTC, LTC, USD, shares etc." on the Ripple Network are the real thing, and not merely IOU's is not doing Ripple any favors.

 Then we have the "Trust" model this is all based on. cough...cough...cough. See more on that below here.

 I still want to believe Ripple can be the future railway for payment transactions, and at a much greater efficiency, and much lower costs for all. But if you and others cannot clearly and plainly, as well as honestly explain exactly what the Ripple Network is to everyone, and ethically represent it, and what it's not, then your going nowhere fast, if at all.

 And this from someone that wants to believe that the Founder of Ripple means well, and has only the best of intentions.

 IOU's are not real assets. But merely promises of payments at a later date and time.

 Toss in the fact we have to share "trust" to strangers and the whole thing suddenly is questionable at best.

 Sure if these strangers and the rest of us could be "insured" against losses then yes maybe it works, or that major backers with extremely deep pockets and zero liabilities would be gateways, with those assets pledged as insurance where placed in independent 3rd party trust accounts not under their control. Then maybe the trust issue wouldn't be tripping things up either. But without this it's just not likely to take off well.

 People cannot blindly trust other people with larger amounts of money. It's a disaster waiting to happen if one is foolish enough to think that isn't true. With experience over time, everyone, sooner or later, will likely come to that very same conclusion.

  It's always best to merely ignore than to appear to be a unyielding authority. Especially when not fully representing exactly what Ripple is, and what it's not. ie: it's not fast, it's not easy, it's not clear, it's not simple to understand. At least not if one cares for the real thing, instead of merely IOU's.

 I have a wallet full of IOU's. Their called Federal Reserve Notes. Most don't even realize what that term means off the bat. But FRN's are dollars. Federal Reserve Note = "US DOLLARS". Not U.S.A. Dollars. But instead their loaned to the USA, at interest, into perpetuity. Merely their IOU's loaned to the Public, from a criminal banking cartel.

 Having given Ripple about a year now to finally get it's act fully together and see only as much as I have to date it's clear that Ripple needs a brand new approach to win over the majority. Maybe some of the very points I just made can help. Just don't expect myself to trust others blindly when it comes to money. That isn't happening in this lifetime. Never again.

 As someone that had to retain in the past stated: We can trust people all the way up to a certain point. And that certain point is money". In other words we cannot just blindly trust people when it comes to money, and their IOU's. Evidence for that is system wide all over the world.

 Lastly: Threatening anyone with legal action is sheer stupidity. I just wrote off Ripple myself, entirely, with that very statement someone here made in this very thread. I wont even bother selling 31,000 Ripples to the next person since given that I now understand I could also now be seen as something I want no more part of. Those Ripples were given to me, I will let them die with me, or maybe instead Ripple, just like many other Crypto's will finally get their acts fully together and get functioning systems).

  I no longer "trust in Ripple". Just like I no longer trust in FRN's. This thread sealed that fate with the threat of legal actions against those that don't care for Ripple, and were not going out of their own way to attack it maliciously. They were merely offering an opinion. And for that what is the responce??? So you must be representing Ripple???

 By the way: The only thing as horrible as Fractional Reserve Banking and Debt based Fiat (IOU's) are lawyers and their clients whom are trying to 'get away with something'.

 But by all means sue me too. I triple dare you to do that for what I just stated, any of what I just stated. I don't cower to bullies, nor tyrants, nor back off once they cross the line. So if your looking for a fight here I am, come get me!

  I only chimed in here because someone wasn't representing what is merely IOU's. And not the real underlining assets. Leaving that part out of the equation is absolutely unforgivable.


Caveat emptor

XRP are ~7.5% distributed amongst users, RippleLabs doesn't issue any IOU, so these are 100% not under their control. Also anderl did not post proof of Ripple's alledged centralization by the way.

These charts are so wrong, it is hard to find a starting point. For one thing 1 Bitcoin address != 1 Bitcoin user. These stats are based on address balances, not users. XRP can NOT be controlled by their creators, since it in fact is an open source and distributed system (just like Bitcoin too - the Satoshi block chain acts as central authority there) and most people would likely disagree with them issuing more XRP to themselves.

It is really frustrating to take time to post educated opinions by the way if the other party is just copy-pasting big red text instead of answering in a meaningful way. If you want to have the same experience (without the big red text, as this is disabled there) please go e.g. to the battle.net forums and open a thread there convincing people that it would be a great thing for Blizzard to accept BTC for WoW subscriptions.

Nice. I'm glad people don't put up with shit from this shameless plug.

GO BACK TO YOUR CAVE, no one wants to get saddled with your crap centralized currency!

'TheWhale' - more like 'TheShill'!

Well, enlighten us then...

I have some ideas, but "controlling it all and doling it out as I deem necessary" is not on the list, believe it or not.

Well, then they'll eat up whatever the market bid for those XRP and XRP are more distributed. It's not like ripple exists solely to transact XRP, unlike bitcoin. Beyond about one USD worth of them to get started you never will need to touch them again any more if you don't want to.

If you choose to 'invest' in XRP, then that's your own problem, as I said to use ripple that's not important.

Ripplescam is very similar to one of these warning statements of banks citing that miners could create bitcoins at will, it is used to buy drugs and who knows what they are calculating anyways... probably you are cracking launch codes to help north Korea getting a nuke! All presented nicely and with pictures as 'evidence'. They usually also present a solution, in this case people were paid to link to inputs.io as the 'real alternative' on this forum. The scammer went on, the myth remains.

Sorry, but apparently you fell for some nice pictures and some explanations that sound technical enough to be 'true' but easy enough for you to understand... I get it that it looks nice, that does not make it right though. Unfortunately a lot of people also don't understand it if you give a technical explanation why this is wrong because they 'understand' the pictures but not decentralized systems for example.

If you guys are looking for DEX, I would like to suggest you guys take a look at Counterparty(XCP):
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annxcp-counterparty-pioneering-peer-to-peer-finance-official-thread-395761

 Initial distribution of XRP is controlled by Ripple Labs; it is undoubtedly a profit source. As of this posting, they retain ~72,000,000,000 of the total 99,999,999,999 that will ever exist.

What happen when they dump their ripples? What will your ripples be worth of insiders desire to cash out? 100 percent premine!  Lol