Topic: [XCR] Crypti | Dapps | Sidechains | Dapp Store | OPEN SOURCE | 100% own code | DPoS - page 128. (Read 804678 times)

1 sat is as low as you can go for BTC trading... most times . once a coin gets to even 5 sats they move it to the LTC or DOGE trading board.

XCR is an 8 decimal coin, just like BTC, so we have 800million Cryptoshis of we needed so many units.

Even if XCR was worth $1000 USD, a Cryptoshi would be worth 0.00001 cents.  

0.5% is out of the question if Crypti should be used in ANY business environment.

0.1% only viable if you make a huge marketing compaign with an easy to implement payment system (Mobile Apps, Merchant UI etc).

Otherwise anything over 0.01% will kill the coin instantly. Almost all transfer activity will stop.

Yes, but the problem is from the point of view of the other 99.99% of the Crypti using population.
Paypal charges 2.9% but they transfer fiat money over their large reasonably trusted central network.
In Crypti like in all crypto coins we do money transfers, address migrations, buying and selling, exchange deposits and withdrawals.
All of which will cost .5% each time.

Example, oops I left my keepass open on my computer and went to get some Thai food.
Come back to find my roommate has 5 friends over and I didnt shut down my computer.
Time to migrate my crypto funds.
500,000 Nxt moved to new account cost 1 Nxt.
1M crypti moved to new account cost 5,000 Xcr.

Thats why you cant compare it to paypal. We do a lot more necessary transactions and much more often with our crypto coins.

So 0.2.0 is not just a major update but another reboot? So then total supply change is then technically possible.
If so, then the total supply discussion is not strange but valid and I get the arguments for increased supply.
But first I have to ask what was the reason for 100M in the first place?
I would like to hear the reason for it before I form an opinion on having 1 trillion or 100 B is better.

If Crypti is to be a simple currency then having a large supply makes sense.
But as I am to understand it we are going to be a lot more with custom blockchains and Dapps.
Without that, Crypti is nothing special. So perhaps the lower supply has to do with that.
Cryptis will be required fuel for custom blockchains no?
Like the way XCP are fuel for all their bitcoin 2.0 features and there are only 2.6M XCP.

On top of tech consideration, we need fees to make the forging worthwhile to attract more people to build a decent and strong delegate pool. 0.1% - 0.5% looks ok to me at this stage.

Multiplying Crypti balances by 1000X (not your 100X) would take Crypti from 1200 Sat to 1.2 Sat per Crypti and from 100M to 100B total coins.  DOGE is currently at 52 Sat per DOGE with 100B total coins.  Moving to 10,000X would give Crypti a trillion coins worth 0.12 Sat each.  That would be 1000/7 = 142 Crypti on average for everybody on the planet.  Thinking big is about thinking of everybody on the planet holding Crypti.

Plus, micropayments are the future, so they say...

A new Crypti coin divider value is a side issue.  

Any comments on the idea of DPoS routine regeneration of the Genesis block to control spam and enable 0.0% fees?

Mal,

XCR is now 1200 sats on Polo.  If we multiplied even by 100X, the XCR would be 1 sat.  If we had 10,000X, then XCR would be worth .
1 DOGE

Somebody please explain to me why spam on the blockchain could not be controlled by a DPoS system instead of a user fee of 0.5%.   In addition to the proposed DPoS launch updated Genesis block, the 101 DPoS Delegates could cooperate and agree among themselves to create a new Genesis block at any time.  When the blockchain hits a certain length, all 101 Delegates could call a short timeout on DPoS forging, calculate a new Genesis block that preserves everybody's balances, and archive the old blockchain on a website where anybody can audit it.  Spam gets archived on a static website;  the Delegates start over with a nice short squeaky clean blockchain, and everybody's accounts and balance data is preserved.  The new short blockchain is deemed valid because a high majority (80%? 90%) of the Delegates cryptographically sign their concurrence into it.

The DPoS sytem (and the advent of super-cheap computing) gives enormous new capabilities that no other cryptocoin has.  We should position ourselves to take full advantage of these capabilities.  DPoS is more than just another method to add blocks to a blockchain.  The Crypti Delegates could one day have enormous control over Money, just as these guys have enormous control over The Internet:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/28/seven-people-keys-worldwide-internet-security-web

But this only happens if we lay the foundation for it NOW.

If Delegate node costs could be covered by a group of candidates who agreed to self-finance cheap hardware like C1s, and if spam could be controlled by routine new, short Genesis block regeneration and old, long blockchain cloud archive by the 101 Delegates, then why would we need a 0.5% fee?  Under THESE circumstances, could Crypti become the first no-fee cryptocoin?  If so, LET'S DO IT.


And as an aside, think big.  I also think the upcoming Genesis block reboot should bump everybody's account balance by 10,000X.

A trillion unit, no-fee, decentralized, cooperative, routine blockchain-pruning cryptocoin?  Hello, World!  

If this is all possible I would vote to implement it into 0.2.0 before the blockchain switchover and go with DPoS spam control / blockchain pruning / routine genesis block regeneration and 0.0% user fees EVEN IF THIS DELAYED 0.2.0 LAUNCH.

This actually isn't 100% true. In our situation, because we are re-doing the genesis block for the transition to DPOS (because the changes require it), it would be possible to simply apply a 10x or 100x to all balances. Not saying we are doing it, but it IS possible at this point, but probably ONLY at this point.

A 0.5% fee is not too high in my opinion, especially for a coin at this stage. There has to be incentive to run nodes and there has to be incentive to not spam the network. They said it will be adjusted as the value of XCR increases, I don't see any reason why it needs to be done before then. Already significantly better than Paypal which has a 2.9% fee, for example. And it is too early to compare XCR to BTC or even NXT, they are completely different coins at completely different stages of existence.

If the coin supply is to be increased or DECREASED, it would be done at the start of DPOS.  The entire block chain is going to be replaced as the existing one is not compatible with the new system.  The 0.1.9 or earlier nodes will not work.

This change will help XCR in the long term growth. It is not for the short term.



This is a valid point. The timing is debatable now. XCR is still in the beta stage. It  will be much easier to do it before the implementation of DPoS though.

We have had discussions about having a max cap on fees.  Meeting is tomorrow, and this will be on the agenda.  We are responsive to the concerns and suggestions of the community.  This is your coin too.

As for comparing with NXT, bear in mind that to forge in NXT, you need thousands of $ worth of NXT.  ANd with a 1 NXT fee, the forgers never earn enough NXT to make it profitable, or even worthwhile.

With XCR, you only need 1000XCR now to forge.  With the DPOS delegates, you can forge with 0 XCR in your delegate, as long as you have enough votes from nodes to place you in the top 101 delegates.

The .5% fee still bothers me guys. I know the Crypti Team put a lot of thought into everything they do.
I wouldn't want you to change it just because 4 posts in a row say its too high.
Unless there is a really higher level thought process going into the .5% that you don't want to reveal I don't see it working.

Because Crypti is young and has little activity you want to reward delegates with a .5% fee.
Anybody running as a delegate now has to be doing it to support their investment in Crypti.
Its later on when we have high value and activity that a delegate will run for income.
So a high .5% fee now is unnecessary and will only turn off anyone looking into Crypti for the first time.

I was looking at blockchain.info. Look at all those transactions coming every second.
I know you guys said if we ever get to bitcoin level of activity the fee will reduce.
But bitcoin doesn't charge a %. Its a miner fee of .0001.
That means if you send one bitcoin it cost you .01% compared to Crypti's .5%.
If you send 10 bitcoins that same .0001 fee is only .001%.

Nxt from the beginning had 1 Nxt fee and even that was debated as being too high for a long time.
If you really like the flat % thing and have a reason for it then I feel it must be something significantly lower.
It has to be lower than .1%. To me .05% is still high but reasonable and won't turn off newcomers (.01% is better).
And when Crypti has a rise in value and usage, it should be lowered further.

Sending 100,000 Nxt costs 1 Nxt. At 100M supply Crypti's equivalent is sending 10,000 Xcr at .5% costs 50 xcr. Its only 5 xcr at .05%.
We should start at .05% and lower it to .01% when we're at 30-50M market cap.
But at the very very least if you dislike .05% then .1%. I mean .5% just sounds so high.

You are strange because your reason for this change is for temporary short term price increase like its a game.
Crypti is a real project not a kids coin.
We in the crypto world are waiting for people who think like you to go away before real adoption can begin.

But the real reason you are strange is because the coin supply can never be changed.
That was the whole point of bitcoin. The supply is fixed forever and can not be altered by any one or government.

Can you explain why you think it is strange?

The thing is that if coins supply increases to 10x, everyone's coins will increase to 10x and your coins will still keep the same proportion of the total coins as before. For instance, if you have 100k coins now, if increasing to 10x, your coins will be 1 millions after the increase. No one will lose anything.

It is a good idea to move to the new forum in the mean time keeping the BTT open. At the beginning, people may be reluctant to this move. But eventually they will like the new place. NXT is an example, in the beginning, majority of Nxters were against it and it took them a long time to make the move. But now everyone would think moving to the new forum was a good idea.

D'oh.  Silly me.

So the real core problem with blockchain technology is bloat and spam.  Therefore blockchain pruning MUST be implemented, which is (along with zero fees) another feature that has never been implemented by any cryptocoin.  Any cryptocoin without blockchain pruning is destined to die eventually.  Bitcoin is already seriously bumping into this problem after less than a decade.  One day Crypti will too.

If the actual true purpose of a user fee is not to adequately repay node runners (which I maintain it can't / won't - I dare somebody to produce a quantitative analysis to the contrary) but instead to prevent spam, then what would it take to implement blockchain pruning?  Instead of a bloated blockchain keeping a running history of every single transaction since genesis block, what is really needed is cryptographically certified current balances of all participants.   Current blockchains provide an audit trail and that's what the bloat is.  All that anybody really cares about is an honest, continually-updated balance sheet with everybody's name on it.  Losing the audit trail along with the bloat would enhance privacy, which is definitely a feature, not a bug.

Is it possible to reduce bloat among 101 delegates by programming them to not generate a block until one is needed?  No zero blocks until they are contacted by a client with a need to generate one?  What's the downside of that approach?

Could the jump from 0.1.9 to 0.2.0 also come with a temporary blockchain halt and recasting a new Genesis block with April 2014 members and their balances?  Coupled with 101 Delegates programmed for no generation of empty zero blocks and only casting a block when needed, this could make Crypti the most efficient blockchain out there.

Let's take this opportunity to drop what bloat (past AND FUTURE) that we can, if we can.
  
I look forward to Crypti simultaneously announcing blockchain pruning and zero fees in some future update beyond 0.2.0.  

This suggestion is strange.

I think 0.5% is way too high. The blockchain is bloated anyway, even without transactions, because of the constant block generation even if nothing happens.